PodcastBig Weird Swings with Skyler Gisondo & Austin Abrams
Last month, we invited them on the podcast to catch up and reflect on their twelve year friendship. Topics covered include: the surreal experience of overnight fame, Spanish movie marketing, establishing boundaries, theater people, drinking beers with Elaine May, Jonah's fear of winged animals, on-demand pushups, degenerate gambling, and why everyone should own a digital copy of Mid90s.
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Speaker: Hey, and welcome back to the A24 Podcast. Today's guest became best friends in 2007 while traveling the world together on the marathon press tour for Superbad. In the 12 years since, Jonah Hill and Michael Cera have stayed close as their careers continue to expand in new directions. This past year, Jonah made his incredible film making debut with Mid90s while Michael Cera has further established himself as a formidable Broadway actor earning raves for his performance in Kenneth Lonergan's play The Waverly Gallery. Despite their busy schedules, we helped them find an hour to sit down and finally catch up.
Jonah: We're starting right now. I'm Jonah Hill.
Michael: I'm Michael Cera.
Jonah: This is Michael Cera and we've been friends for almost 12 years, maybe even longer now I believe. Maybe 13 years.
Michael: When do you consider our friendship starting? That's the question.
Jonah: I consider it starting -
Michael: I think halfway through shooting maybe, Superbad.
Jonah: That's when you consider it to start?
Michael: No, that's when I felt like, "Oh, you really love me."
Jonah: Well, I felt earlier.
Michael: You did?
Jonah: Yeah, I felt during the ... we should start by saying we were in a movie called Superbad together.
Michael: Let's give a lot of context, yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, we'll go back. We are -
Michael: Anybody that goes out of the way to listen to this I think doesn't need too much preface.
Jonah: How do these two chaps know one another?
Michael: I mean who's just randomly listening to this?
Jonah: What a weird combination of people to throw together for a podcast. But, we were told when we both got the part that we ... Judd Apatow told me just hang.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Like his only directive was really to hang out.
Michael: Become friends.
Jonah: We obviously had this like ... this movie that stuck around for a long time, but we also went through something very similar at the same time together. Very unique. Like a super unique experience at the same time together.
Michael: Being what?
Jonah: Just like being in a movie. Like one day ... I mean people knew who we were from -
Michael: Yeah, from one day to the next. Yeah.
Jonah: - Arrested Development but it was still very like ... yeah, we'd go to Canter's and it'd be like some nerd like us being like "Hey, you're awesome on Arrested Development" and you'd be like "Thanks." And it was just -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Jonah: And then we were in this movie and then the day after it came out -
Michael: It was very different.
Jonah: Very different. And, what was awesome though, was that right as it came out here and things were very gnarly in that way, they sent us to other countries together. You, me and Chris.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, that's what I remember. The tour of that is what you and I always end up talking about.
Michael: That was amazing. They didn't like us in Italy.
Jonah: No. No.
Michael: They didn't like the movie.
Jonah: And Spain.
Michael: Spain they didn't like us?
Jonah: Well, I don't know if it was they didn't like us but remember they ... the poster -
Michael: The way they marketed it.
Jonah: - was the funniest thing of all time. You want to tell this story/
Michael: Yeah, they made it like it was a porno. There was bras hanging off of it like -
Jonah: It was called Supersalidos, which is “Super Horny.”
Michael: Yeah, that's always really weird. It's called Super Horny and if you look at our faces on the poster and you put the title Super Horny there -
Jonah: Do you remember what the poster was?
Michael: Yeah,, it was just ... oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: No, no, this story's crazy. Okay, so Emma Stone's character, in Spain they were like really trying to make comedy, American comedies, we were like okay, we can break an American comedy in Spain, which I guess doesn't happen or didn't happen at that time. So, they hired a very famous actress to be Emma's voice.
Michael: Yeah, she was doing the voice dubbing.
Jonah: Voice dubbing for Emma Stone's character in Superbad and then the poster was her, not Emma, was the famous actress in Spain -
Michael: Photoshopped in.
Jonah: - photoshopped in, not Emma Stone, even though she was just a voice, and then between her legs -
Michael: Weird concept.
Jonah: - were me, Michael, and Chris like looking out.
Michael: Drooling.
Jonah: Like drooling.
Michael: And it's called Super Horny.
Jonah: It was called Super Horny. We were driving around Spain like what the fuck.
Michael: What is happening to us?
Jonah: This is so weird and not -
Michael: And in Italy, in the scene where we're like cuddling in the sleeping bags, they started kissing.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: We're like ewww, no.
Jonah: And also was amazing because we first got to hear our voices, like the dubbed -
Michael: Yeah, yeah, the dubbed over. It was fantastic.
Jonah: Yeah, it was like oh.
Michael: Well, I still keep in touch with my ... the guy who dubbed me, David. Do you remember him?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: He was four feet tall. He had long red hair down to his ass. He rode around Rome on a moped. He was like "I have never met one of my actors. I've been doing Elijah Wood since Radio Flyer." And then remember, the moped, he was ... we saw all these people cruising through traffic on the mopeds and he was one of these guys and I was like, "Aren't you scared to get hit by a car" and he was like "I'm very afraid for my life." David.
Jonah: That's so fucked up man.
Michael: But, talking about things changing in a weird way over night, I remember something that happened right when Superbad came out was a few months before it came out, a friend of mine, this girl, Nicole, had a birthday party where I grew up in like some -
Jonah: In Brampton?
Michael: - gymnasium in Brampton. She rented it out and a bunch of friends got in there and hung out for the night and -
Jonah: That's kind of a cool birthday party.
Michael: Yeah, it was nice. It was like all my high school friends. We had just graduated and everything. So, there was this girl Melinda that I used to know. I was I guess hanging out with her, talking with her over the course of the evening and then like a little later in the night, this guy comes up to me and he's trying to kick my ass, like in a blind rage. He's drunk and my friends are holding him back. He's like, "I'm gonna kill that guy. I'm gonna kill him."
Jonah: No, no cause for it? Just like -
Michael: I've never seen this guy. No, I -
Jonah: - wants to fight?
Michael: I didn't even know this person existed before and then he's like really about to ... and I was just kind of standing there laughing because I thought he had me mistaken. I was like this is so unfounded -
Jonah: You clearly think I'm someone else.
Michael: Yeah, it was like what is happening and I guess he had seen me talking to her and he was dating her. And, it made him crazy because he was a psychotic person. Like he ... I don't know. He got very drunk and then decided he had to murder me or something. And then, everybody kind of calmed him down. So then, when Superbad came out a month or so later, I was out with my ... this is the only interaction I've ever had with this man.
Jonah: So, interaction one is he tries to kill you?
Michael: Yes. Yes, and then he kind of ... and then he's like, you know, frothing at the mouth. So then I'm at a bar, which is already kind of a misguided choice, like I realize kind of after it was way too much heat on us at the time to just go out to a bar. It was insane in there. I mean I was not used to being this recognizable that quickly and everybody in the bar was all over me.
Jonah: And also everyone's really inebriated.
Michael: Yes, everybody ... like there's no boundaries. Everybody's physical with you and everything. I just was learning that this is not the best ... it was a lot of pressure.
Jonah: Yeah, not the best forum for you to walk around.
Michael: No, but I mean I was just out with my friends. And then this guy sits down next to me, his name was Matt something and he was like, "Hey, Mike. How are you man?" It was like "Oh, hey man." I'm like whoa.
Jonah: You recognize him as the guy who's trying to ... yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I'll never forget his face. And I'm like hey. I'm kind of treating him like you talk to a pit bull or something. He's being nice now. I'm just petting him. And, he's like, "How are you man?" He seems like the sweetest guy. I was like, "I'm good. How are you?" He's like, "I'm good." He goes, "I had no idea you were an actor." I was like yeah. Yeah. He's like, "So you go out to L.A. and stuff? You work out there occasionally?" And I was like, "Yeah. I mean yeah." He goes, "God, I'd love to visit you out there sometime." I swear to God. And I was just like what is this coming to?
Jonah: He wanted to stay with you?
Michael: Yeah, he's like, "Man, let's keep in touch. Don't be a stranger."
Jonah: So what did that tell you about your newfound circumstance?
Michael: I don't know. It told me a lot about this person. I mean this just very psychotic person. I don't know.
Jonah: Right, like very unhinged.
Michael: And this is his perception of the experiences in the world. The way things are -
Jonah: Well, did you find that that kind of thing happened a lot or did you -
Michael: That was funny. No. I mean that was unusual, but that was -
Jonah: He was an extreme circumstance.
Michael: That was extremely funny that things could turn that much of a way that quick.
Jonah: So how long did he stay with you?
Michael: I mean we ... he's now my personal assistant. We've been together 12 years. He's outside the room.
Jonah: I did see him out there.
Michael: And, he's always in a state of either kicking my ass or loving me. We just live on that. We walk that fine line.
Jonah: That was the guy beating the shit out of you outside?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Oh, so that's Matt?
Michael: Yeah, well, you know, he was annoyed about the coffee that - I deserved it. Honestly, I deserved it. I got him the wrong kind of coffee this morning.
Jonah: Do you remember, one of my favorite bits somehow is when we were in ... we were on that tour and we were in Spain, I only remember because I still, when I get on ... I was on an airplane yesterday and I still -
Michael: Oh yeah, of course.
Jonah: - think about it all the time.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: So we're on a plane in Spain and the plane smells like feces.
Michael: Yeah, there's no other way to say it really.
Jonah: It's like the most terrible smell you've ever -
Michael: It had that real kind of human feces smell to it.
Jonah: This was not a bad odor that reminded us of feces, this was -
Michael: No. It was unacceptable. Yeah, it was not something you want to hang out with for three hours in the air.
Jonah: And, we were grounded. We couldn't take off. That's why it was crazy. So, we were not even in the air and we were stuck for like three hours on the tarmac and it smelled like feces and we kept ... the bit was basically about how the pilot was making an announcement, it was a Spanish pilot, and that he was excusing that we were on a new kind of plane that was actually assembled and built from -
Michael: Yeah, made entirely of shit.
Jonah: Of shit.
Michael: But, I think it was exciting. It was like a thing that they were proud of. Everybody from the town had contributed. People were very proud.
Jonah: Exactly. Everything, the wings and -
Michael: I think that that was probably a survival mechanism.
Jonah: I have contributed. The townspeople had contributed as well.
Michael: We did the whole flight.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But, it was probably just to distract ourselves from how awful the -
Jonah: It was truly fucking insane.
Michael: We needed some way to deal with it.
Jonah: And, for 12 years, pretty consistently I'd say at least twice a month we do that bit.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Where the plane is ... the pilot is giving an announcement -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - of pride that the plane that we are on is made of feces.
Michael: There were a bunch of those. Like twice we snapped at each other I remember.
Jonah: What was it?
Michael: Because it was very unusual. Oh, just ... we were just tired and impatient.
Jonah: But do you remember what the emphasis was?
Michael: Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. I do. We were at a photoshoot, the three of us at some putting place that glowed in the dark. Do you remember?
Jonah: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Michael: And the photographer wanted me to do something -
Jonah: This was in Marina - this was by the airport. This was -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, by LAX. Right?
Jonah: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: And, the photographer kept telling me to do something, to jump or something and I didn't want to do it and you were like "Just do it so we can get out of here." And, I was like "Fuck off. Don't tell me to do it." I remember, and it was tense moment and I felt really weird telling you ... I was like why am I saying this to Jonah, but I think we were just tired. It's like -
Jonah: Like they literally had every ... basically like threw pies in our face.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, they ... yeah.
Jonah: Like it was this close to slipping on a banana peel and I'm just like dude -
Michael: Oh, that's -
Jonah: - I want to go home. Fucking jump up in the air.
Michael: I mean I think probably since then have you developed like ... now I know how to kind of
Jonah: Yeah, to politely and respectfully -
Michael: - I don't know, advocate for myself. Yeah, in these situations.
Jonah: You, I will say were always ... I tell you this all the time, and when I interview you for that Zine that we did for A24, my interview with you and my sister are my two favorites, but you even at 19 had like a very good boundary, self protection of what felt right for you and what didn't. I really didn't have any self protection of what felt goofy or what felt like I was betraying myself in some way. I think you have really good boundaries even when you were a kid. You kind of knew what felt shitty and what felt good and were able to stand up for yourself in a lot of ways.
Michael: Yeah. I think maybe what I've learned since then is how to stand up for yourself but not have it be tense.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: Because I use to really feel like at war or something if I had a boundary and I needed to protect it. You feel like just put pressure on you. Like the silence, you know, when there's like press people there and they're like "We want you to do this thing" and you're like "I really don't want to do it." They just go quiet and like you've said something really awful.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: Just say to me "I don't want to do it."
Jonah: This feels like weird, I don't want to do it.
Michael: Oh. Um, okay. Well. You know that moment?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: That puts an enormous amount of pressure on you. I used to have a publicist and sometimes I'd feel like when there's not too much to do because I don't need to get a lot of clothes for me or something or hair and makeup, my publicist, I feel like she would start fights with people just to kind of feel like she was -
Jonah: Had a job that was important.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, just to throw her weight around or just to be there. So, I would sometimes be in a fight with a photographer without even knowing it. And, the photographer would be angry at me. And, this happened one time with this photographer and she wanted me to wear a hat I didn't want to wear and then she pulled me aside, she was like, "What's your fucking problem? Why aren't you gonna do any of this shit?" And, I was like "What do you mean? I don't even know what we're talking about here."
Jonah: Someone you don't know is upset with you, going "What's your fucking problem" -
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: - and you're 19?
Michael: Yeah. That kind of alerted me. I was like oh man, I've got to just speak for myself here.
Jonah: I want to talk about the play you're doing now, which I have not seen, which I feel like a horrible friend.
Michael: Oh no, there's lots of time.
Jonah: But, I see all of your plays honestly.
Michael: Yeah, you'll see it. I mean we're going 'til February. So, you know, there's -
Jonah: Yeah, I'm waiting for you to get in the rhythm a little bit.
Michael: Yeah, like let us click -
Jonah: I know it takes usually six to eight months to get in the rhythm of things.
Michael: Yeah. Come as late as possible.
Jonah: No, but like even now, it's been amazing to watch you kind of like understand ... you have this beautiful thing going especially with Kenneth Lonergan and you've become this really formidable Broadway actor.
Michael: Thank you.
Jonah: Yeah, it's amazing.
Michael: Yeah, it's ... I mean yeah, it's kinda just weird how it happened I guess. I mean it just happened -
Jonah: Not just a Broadway actor but I mean like -
Michael: Yeah, just ... yeah.
Jonah: You have this very formidable theater career, and especially a partnership with Kenneth.
Michael: Yeah, I still feel quite out of place though doing it. I feel like ... you know, it's funny, Lucas -
Jonah: Why's that?
Michael: I don't know, because I don't have any language for theater. Like Lucas and David Cromer, who plays the stepfather in the play and he's actually a theater director. He directed The Band’s Visit who just won a Tony.
Jonah: Tell them the name of the play.
Michael: Oh, The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah:The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Starring Elaine May, which is kind of the whole thing.
Jonah: And Lucas Hedges and Michael Cera.
Michael: And Lucas, yeah. And, Joan Allen, me and David.
Jonah: Oh, Joan Allen?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: But, we're gonna get in to the whole Elaine May, like -
Michael: Yeah, that's a whole thing.
Jonah: Because I haven't even gotten to catch up with you because -
Michael: Yeah, I know.
Jonah: This is actually a forced time for us to hang out because you're in the play, it's so hard to like -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, we're doing it after this.
Jonah: Yeah, you literally have a hard out to go do it.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And so, I want to hear all of that Elaine May, but go on. Yeah.
Michael: David and Lucas and I share a floor in the theater and David and Lucas have a shared language about theater, like they make inside jokes about theater people and stuff and the world and they sing songs from musicals and everything. There's this whole thing and I'm like this is not my world at all.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: So, I feel a bit like an intruder in there. And, you just feel that ... the audiences are the same people as these guys. Like they have this deep ... like that's their obsession, their world. They know the whole language of it. Everybody, every show, every song.
Jonah: Someone used the term last night that I loved which was that someone was talking to me about this kind of thing where they go the audience is narrow but it's deep as hell. You know, so it's like a narrow ... it's a certain type of person, so it's like narrow but it's so deep, meaning like there are people that are obsessed with -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - theater like you're saying.
Michael: Yeah, that's right. Apparently David said there's a message board called All That Chat that -
Jonah: I'm going on. I'm literally getting a fake troll account and going so deep to talk shit about you on this.
Michael: Please, just like destroy my reputation on there.
Jonah: I met Michael Cera outside the theater and I feel -
Michael: He spit in my face. I don't know, maybe where he comes from that's a sign of respect.
Jonah: But what's the chatter?
Michael: And, there's people that live in Florida or live in Seattle -
Jonah: That are obsessive.
Michael: - that are obsessed with Broadway and that they have a comment and an opinion on every show.
Jonah: My sister is like ... I mean that's Beanie.
Michael: Oh really?
Jonah: Yeah, Beanie like grew up obsessed -
Michael: That was her thing?
Jonah: Beanie, Ben Platt, they grew up together. They're best friends. That is their like hip hop for me or something.
Michael: Their beacon.
Jonah: Or movies for us, you know? Yeah, it's amazing. And, Scott Rudin's like that.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Jonah: You know Scott Rudin who produced Mid90s and Waverly Gallery, Michael's play.
Michael: He's like the king of Broadway.
Jonah: He's the king of Broadway. He's kind of the king of everything but he ... when you really see him light up is when he talks about a play.
Michael: Oh yeah. Yeah, I wish I could hold my own with those guys but I just ... that's just not my world. I'm kind of a visitor in it.
Jonah: But maybe that gives you some unique perspective to working in the medium, you know?
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I mean the only plays I've worked on are Kenneth Lonergan plays and I was talking about this with my girlfriend the other day that actually his plays ... the thing that really gives it its force is its realism. The tone and the way that he captures language and conversation.
Jonah: Yeah, there's nothing "Broadway" about it actually. Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I mean it's hard to do an interpretation of one of his plays in a very avant-garde way or something because the thing that makes them really sing is that they sound like people talking.
Jonah: People talking, yeah. You know, it's funny because I saw you for the first time when your first time on Broadway, This Is Our Youth and you were amazing. You, Kieran Culkin and Tavi Gevinson, is that how you say her last name?
Michael: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Jonah: And, I was obviously so proud. I think I was like so shocked that you were ... I think I was just so excited and shocked. I was like just high off of seeing you up there. And then, by the time I saw Lobby Hero, which was your second play, I was like holy shit, Michael is a serious actor in this realm. You know what I mean?
Michael: Oh yeah. I would love to see you do it.
Jonah: That play -
Michael: I would love to see you on stage for it.
Jonah: I don't ... I'm so curious if I'd have the patience for it.
Michael: Yeah, it's -
Jonah: I think I'd be better at writing a play than acting in one.
Michael: Totally. It's like a ... it's a bit of a marathon.
Jonah: Yeah, just because I'm so ... I get so sick of it, I can't even -
Michael: You did write a play. I loved the play that you guys did.
Jonah: Oh yeah, Spike Jones and I wrote a play.
Michael: That was great.
Jonah: Yeah, I think I liked writing a play more than watching the actors get ready for it.
Michael: I loved that show.
Jonah: Spike Jones and I wrote a play called 100% Cotton.
Michael: That was really cool.
Jonah: Thank you. That we did one night only and then destroyed.
Michael: Can I describe -
Jonah: Yeah, sure.
Michael: - my experience of when it first started?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: I'm sure this is how you guys designed it but it blew me away. So, you kind of let in through this door on the street. You don't really know quite where you are.
Jonah: You have no idea. It's in an alley.
Michael: Yeah, you're in an alley. And then, you're brought up under these like bleachers and there's only a few rows. There's like how many people, 100 people maybe.
Jonah: Maybe. Yeah.
Michael: And then there's a big curtain and then when the curtain opens, you realize you're in the Metropolitan Opera and what's behind the curtain is the house, like the auditorium.
Jonah: So you get a view that only the performers -
Michael: Which is enormous.
Jonah: - would see.
Michael: Yeah, so you're viewing from the stage of the house and you guys used that whole space for the show.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: With people wearing head mics, like way the hell up and far away. That was great. It was like stunning when that opened up and you're like this is where we are?
Jonah: See, I was so used to it, like I didn't have -
Michael: Yeah. Oh that was a great reveal.
Jonah: I knew that was the idea of it, I wish I could get that perspective.
Michael: It was very cool. It was very cool.
Jonah: It was fun. It was so great that you were there.
Michael: Yeah, that was a great show. Was it fun to write that?
Jonah: Yeah, like to me, I think writing ... writing gives me the most joy out of everything.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: I like love writing. I love -
Michael: It was a good show.
Jonah: - just watching great actors like say the words that you wrote. I would love to write a play that you were in.
Michael: That'd be fun.
Jonah: Even though you're used to Kenny Lonergan, which would be taking a major step down for your next one. But, when I saw you in the lobby here -
Michael: That'd be great.
Jonah: - I was like holy shit, Michael really smashed it. I couldn't believe how much you carried a play with just you and Brian really talking to each other. Brian Tyree Henry, another brilliant actor.
Michael: Yeah, it's a great show.
Jonah: And, you didn't have a flashy part.
Michael: Right.
Jonah: You know, and I was like the fact that we're just watching Michael and another actor on a stage riveting you for two hours or however long it is, I was like Michael has just become like a fucking beast of an actor.
Michael: That's great, man.
Jonah: I already knew you were a beast of an actor but I think it's different.
Michael: It's a different experience, yeah.
Jonah: It's different than watching you do film. Well, it's just different than watching you in a film than watching you really just have dialogue basically.
Michael: Yeah. Did you, as a friend watching your friend in a play, did you feel nervous about it?
Jonah: No, I was just excited.
Michael: How cool.
Jonah: I knew you're someone who like doesn't miss in my mind. You know what I mean? Like you kind of ... I don't know, you have just never missed. I've never seen you in something and been like -
Michael: Oh, that's nice.
Jonah: - "Man, Michael wasn't good in that." I've never seen you miss. You're my favorite actor.
Michael: That's so sweet. Oh man, that's really sweet. Well, the thing actually like something I think you would like about theater, you do the show so many times, you do it over and over and there are shows that you feel terrible about. You just feel like they're not clicking in to ... you have like your own personal system of grading each show. You can't help but compare and contrast them based on the audience response and what they're feeding you and how you feel you're doing or how comfortable you feel or how authentic you feel or something. It's kind of a good Buddhist exercise to -
Jonah: To let go?
Michael: - let it go. Yeah, let it go. Like a sandcastle that just gets washed away after each one and there's no record of it. It's just like okay, that 700 people think that I'm talentless. The next might be into it.
Jonah: Am I gonna focus on that or do I have to be in today?
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, it's just they bring in groups of people and each of them see whatever you can do that day.
Jonah: I would like that.
Michael: And, that's their opinion of you. It's interesting. Yeah.
Jonah: I would like that because what I need in life the most is the experiences you experience. Being in the results business is like a failure.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good thing about theater. I mean sometimes afterwards you're like huh, nobody'll ever know I did that. There's no record of that work, although there is, but -
Jonah: Right, in movies it's even harder because there's such a public record of you fucking up.
Michael: A permanent record. Yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, exactly. It's like I love that about it. I've never heard it put like that and that you have to kind of let it go immediately and go on to the next one.
Michael: I had the same kind of experience in the writer's room when I was in there for Arrested Development. Same kind of like, I don't know, zen acceptance thing.
Jonah: Like whatever you write that day you -
Michael: Yeah, some days you really contribute. Some days you really pull your weight and you say something funny and it gets in the script, and some days you really just sit there and nothing comes to you.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But you just can't -
Jonah: But what is it? I guess this is such a Buddhist life thing, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: So, it's like on those days, I so know what you're talking about. Any day you're writing and doing anything, you're like -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, totally. There's good days and bad days.
Jonah: Good days and bad days, so you go home and you're like wow, I really ... I fucking like -
Michael: Had a breakthrough.
Jonah: Had some real great shit today.
Michael: Right.
Jonah: Or, a day where literally just zero.
Michael: A waste of a day. Yeah.
Jonah: Is the idea that you go home and kind of feel pride in that day or shame in that day, or is it that you just go it was what it was, don't let either one ... it was just that you were doing it is the idea?
Michael: I think that and maybe just to like get over your self evaluation. Actually, the thing that I really appreciate about doing the theater ... actually, the point I was making was you'll have a show that you feel really terrible about, that just happens. And, sometimes your friends are there on those days. And, your friend'll come back and tell you they loved it and you'll say "Well, no, I had a really bad show tonight" and they'll be like "Well, you can never tell." However, you're perceiving what's happening has actually nothing to do with what the audience is experiencing.
Jonah: See, as a human being, whatever I'm feeling, I assume everyone can just know that. Maybe I'm getting better at it now because I'm aware of it. But, if I felt like depressed or horrible, I assumed anyone I encounter, like I'm like a clear window and they can just see it, but you realize no, they don't ... they reflect whatever they want to on to you.
Michael: Exactly. I wonder if that ... I don't know, I feel like part of kind of really getting to know yourself and know how you feel about things and not base that on what other people think is part of growing up.
Jonah: Yeah. Like knowing your actions and your -
Michael: Yeah, and where you stand on things.
Jonah: - worth.
Michael: Having your own compass in life.
Jonah: It is. It makes your friendships deeper. It makes your relationships deeper when you have that.
Michael: Yeah, there's this line ... did you ever watch What Planet Are You From, the Garry Shandling movie?
Jonah: Yeah, of course.
Michael: Yeah, which I think ... like I know Garry really hated that movie.
Jonah: That was my favorite part in the Garry doc that Judd did.
Michael: Talking about that movie?
Jonah: Yeah, just because you're like wow, Garry Shandling and Mike Nichols, like two of my heroes got together -
Michael: Yeah, and John Goodman, Craig Shaner.
Jonah: Yeah, but just the minds of Garry and Mike Nichols -
Michael: yeah, and Mike Nichols.
Jonah: - getting together and you're like -
Michael: It was so perfect.
Jonah: - it was such a disaster and they hated each other.
Michael: They hated each other. It's really sad.
Jonah: Do you think Garry was like ... and we can go on a whole like Garry podcast basically -
Michael: Uh-huh (affirmative). Of course, yeah.
Jonah: - because you were closer to him than I was but I had a lot of good experiences with Garry.
Michael: Yeah, I know. I remember the night that you guys met. I remember that.
Jonah: Yeah, where was it?
Michael: Seth was doing some charity thing.
Jonah: Oh, right.
Michael: Yeah, it was like an evening celebrating Seth Rogen or something. That was kind of like the joke, pretense of it, right, and Garry was there. And, you were just talking to him. You just sat and talked with him at a table at the end of the night and I was there with Nic Kesinovic and all her friends. And, we were getting ready to go and Garry was just like clicked in to you and talking to you and you were glowing because it was I think a big moment for you. And, we were like, "Hey man, we're getting ready to go."
Jonah: Oh, he gave me a ride home.
Michael: Yeah, he was like "Well, we're just talking. Do you guys mind if we just talk for a little longer?" And, you were just like ... I was really happy for you because you just seemed like you'd been like anointed. It was really nice.
Jonah: Meeting him, as you know, you and him got close, it -
Michael: It was the best thing ever, yeah.
Jonah: I mean he's just as magical as anyone would ever like.
Michael: Yeah, that was a big gift.
Jonah: And a big loss.
Michael: Yeah, I really miss him a lot.
Jonah: What a monumental brain and figure.
Michael: Ah, he was a great person. Oh, but the line in that movie, because he wrote that movie, and I think this is basically Garry's philosophy, is it's a line that Annette Bening says, she's like, "What's your goal in life?" And he's like, "I don't know." And, she goes, "Well, my goal is to get to know myself so that I can stop thinking about myself and start focusing on others." It really feels like that's basically Garry's life philosophy.
Jonah: Right. And, if you look at -
Michael: And, he said it through her.
Jonah: If you look at principles of lots of different things that have helped a lot of people, whether they're religion or programs or things like that, it's basically get out of self and give to other people.
Michael: Yeah, it sounds nice.
Jonah: Anytime you're in yourself, even beating yourself up is so selfish because it's about you.
Michael: Totally.
Jonah: Even if you're being really unkind to yourself, it's a selfish act because it's just about you.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Before we move on, can now we talk about Elaine May?
Michael: Oh yeah.
Jonah: Because I haven't even gotten to ask you as friend yet about all of the shit -
Michael: Yeah, we haven't talked about her.
Jonah: - because you've been so busy. But, I want to know what has that been like? Elaine May is the star of Michael's play, one of the stars of Michael's play and she was Mike Nichols' comedy partner.
Michael: Yeah, and they did their show at the Golden Theater, which is where we're doing the show.
Jonah: Wow!
Michael: Yeah, they -
Jonah: Did she have crazy ... I mean obviously must say cool shit about that.
Michael: What did she ... I mean she's just like yeah, it was just the two of us. We didn't even need all this space because there's like 12 dressing rooms. They're like we just ... we're just on this first floor.
Jonah: So what has been some of the most interesting topics that you've gotten in to with her?
Michael: You know the sad thing is that -
Jonah: Or things you've learned.
Michael: Well, since we've gotten out of rehearsals and we're just performing the show, I kind of hardly see her. We have to like construct situations where we overlap.
Jonah: Right because now you just go and do the show.
Michael: You just get to the theater ... yeah, and I see her on stage. So, sometimes we'll hang back after the show and like ... she likes Stout so I'll bring her Stout.
Jonah: The beer?
Michael: Yeah, there's ... yeah, she loves it. There's this really good Stout called Mexican Cake, which is like ... it's got chocolate and cinnamon and habanero pepper in it. It's a really thick ... it's like tar.
Jonah: Amazing.
Michael: And so I'll -
Jonah: So you bring her a keg of that?
Michael: I bring her a keg of that. I get her real loose and then you get her drunk and then she'll tell you everything.
Jonah: So you literally just kick back and have a beer with Elaine May sometimes after the show?
Michael: Sometimes, yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: Like you'll never forget that the rest ... I mean that is -
Michael: No, those are the best. Yeah, those are the best.
Jonah: She's one of my top ... she's my top five heroes of all time -
Michael: Oh yeah, she's the great ... well, you have to overlap -
Jonah: She's the greatest.
Michael: - with her.
Jonah: She's also one of the first huge female directors like at a very early time.
Michael: I know, that's the most incredible thing.
Jonah: Really pioneered female directors.
Michael: And she will stare down the studios. Like with Mikey and Nicky.
Jonah: And, A New Leaf was her first movie with Walter Matthau and it has one of my favorite sequences of all time in it. The movie's about Walter Matthau's a rich guy who loses all of his money and then dates Elaine May, who is like a wacky weirdo and has inheritance, a wealthy New York person. But, she's like really wacky and you wouldn't want to date her is the idea, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: But, Walter Matthau loses all of his money and he's such a shallow guy obsessed with being rich and there's a sequence, it's one of the funniest sequences in a movie ever -
Michael: Oh, when he's talking to his accountant?
Jonah: No, where he says goodbye to being rich and he sadly does all the things he does as a rich person for the last time. So, he's kind of like almost crying and saying goodbye to eating at this fancy restaurant, like getting tailored for a suit, but he's very upset in a way that only Walter Matthau could pull off so brilliantly.
Michael: Oh, man. Yeah. They were really great together.
Jonah: I want to hear an Elaine May story before we go. Imagine like getting to spend an afternoon with Mike Nichols and Elaine May.
Michael: Oh my god, yeah.
Jonah: I think if I could ... you know one of those things like who would you have dinner with.
Michael: I think they were friends 'til the end. She talks about him with great affection.
Jonah: I think that would be my like ... people are like Jesus or whatever, I think I literally would have dinner with -
Michael: The two of them.
Jonah: - Elaine May and Mike Nichols.
Michael: Did you ever see there's a video on YouTube of the two of them talking like at the Y or something, the 92nd Street Y.
Jonah: No.
Michael: It's great. It's kind of like what you're saying. Like you just get to see them just hang out and talk.
Jonah: And they just riff off each other.
Michael: Yeah, they talk about their careers and they talk about, you know, everything. It's really nice.
Jonah: Reds is one of my favorite movies and Elaine May wrote so much of Reds. She came in to write so much, is the story of that movie.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I've never seen it.
Jonah: It's such a good movie.
Michael: Yeah, I've got to see it.
Jonah: It's ... maybe it's a masterpiece.
Michael: Jack Nicholson's in it, right?
Jonah: Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty -
Michael: Warren Beatty, yeah.
Jonah: - directed it and stars in it.
Michael: Won like an Academy Award for it, right?
Jonah: He won like all of them I think.
Michael: Right. Yeah.
Jonah: I think it was the one where he won like -
Michael: He swept.
Jonah: - every category.
Michael: I think that movie is the reason Ishtar exists because he was indebted to Elaine.
Jonah: Right, so he was like he owed her.
Michael: Yeah, he wanted to get this movie made.
Jonah: I want to watch Ishtar now with where I'm at cinematically in my mind to see if it is bad or deserves the hatred or -
Michael: I don't think it's like nearly as bad as the -
Jonah: As the vitriol for it.
Michael: Yeah, being like synonymous ... I think the thing that happened is that it just lost like an incredible amount of money.
Jonah: Right, it was expensive and didn't make money.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it ended her film career.
Jonah: That's so crazy.
Michael: For now.
Jonah: But, she wrote The Birdcage.
Michael: Yeah, she went on writing.
Jonah: Which to me is the single funniest comedy ... it's like maybe my favorite comedy. I just ... there's so much I think about on a daily basis from that movie. Even like Gene Hackman, when he's so taken with Nathan Lane as the mom.
Michael: Oh yeah, right.
Jonah: He was like "You were just such a charming woman." And obviously there's like Hank Azaria.
Michael: Yeah, he's amazing. I mean he kind of steals it.
Jonah: I mean it's like as good as it gets pretty much.
Michael: And then you have like Robin Williams was being basically held back all through it. You have to tell ... I love that take on it.
Jonah: My bit about The Birdcage is that Robin Williams, it's maybe my favorite performance of his.
Michael: Very subdued.
Jonah: It's so subdued and he's the straight man of the movie and Nathan Lane is the comedic figure basically of the film.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, it's just like there are fucking ankle weights on Robin Williams the entire movie, and then there's that one moment where he's showing ... he's directing the play and he's showing -
Michael: For the grandmother.
Jonah: For the grandmother, like Mike Nichols is just like thumb on him, like holding him down the entire movie.
Michael: It's like just let him go.
Jonah: And, Mike Nichols is like I'm too exhausted. Fuck it.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And just Robin Williams is just Robin Williams for five minutes.
Michael: Yeah, let him shine for that one scene in the movie.
Jonah: And the rest of the time he's fully in character as the straight man of the movie, but like he cannot help himself.
Michael: It's really great.
Jonah: But, it's just funny because you see him ... it's almost like he's miserable containing that the entire movie and he just fucking can't help himself.
Michael: But he's really great too as that -
Jonah: He's so heartbreaking.
Michael: - that guy. I just got reminded of my favorite story of yours.
Jonah: What?
Michael: Speaking of birds ... the story where a bird almost flew in to you.
Jonah: Oh my god, yeah.
Michael: This is the story of yours that I tell people the most because it's my favorite thing.
Jonah: Go ahead. I'm literally just tallying up that scene from The Birdcage, so you can go ahead and tell this story.
Michael: You want me to tell it?
Jonah: Yeah, you tell it.
Michael: Me tell it?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Okay, I mean it's your story.
Jonah: I know but maybe it'd be more interesting to hear you tell it.
Michael: But, it kills me. Okay, you'll see my interpretation -
Jonah: Interpretation of it.
Michael: - of it down over the years because you told me this ten years ago.
Jonah: Yeah. This was longer than that.
Michael: Correct me if I get it wrong. So you're dating this girl.
Jonah: Yeah, my first like serious girlfriend, Sydney.
Michael: Yes, and you went to meet her family at their house.
Jonah: No, already wrong.
Michael: Okay.
Jonah: We're at her brother's high school graduation.
Michael: Oh, so it was a big event like that?
Jonah: At a restaurant at the beach. Her brother and her dad and his friends are all -
Michael: Playing football or something.
Jonah: - bro, like jocks.
Michael: Right, and they're all getting down squirming in the sand together.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Like muscles rippling.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Right. Writhing on each other.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Doing some masculine stuff.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: And, you're sitting with the women talking, right? And they were like come play ... weren't they like "Hey, come play in the game" and you're like, "No"?
Jonah: No, they took a break because the men were all around. So, the men all came back to the -
Michael: So they're hanging out, yeah, right.
Jonah: Yeah, and everyone's kind of hanging out and we're sitting in these chairs like eating lunch.
Michael: But you were already feeling not like the most masculine person on the beach because you didn't play the game?
Jonah: One hundred percent didn't ... it was like full like Wedding Crashers style. They were playing football and I didn't want to partake and was talking that out like -
Michael: Right, you guys were folding napkins at the table.
Jonah: - feelings. Yeah. And, they sit back down and everyone ... like the men are like exhausted from the big football match.
Michael: Right, chugging Gatorade.
Jonah: Yeah, and just sort of like patting each other on the back and blah, blah, blah.
Michael: Tousling hair.
Jonah: You can take it from here.
Michael: Yeah, okay, so the thing that happened that really makes it a great story is that so there was a bird that nearly flew ... or flew by you, right? Like flew by your head?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: What's the non-exaggerated version of it?
Jonah: The non ... the real version is a bird flew at me but didn't come that close to hitting me.
Michael: There was no immediate danger?
Jonah: It was like you looked up and a bird was flying at you but it wasn't severe and it wasn't dangerous.
Michael: Yeah, and so ... and this might pique the mic a little. So, your reaction was, get ready on the dial that ... so your reaction was you jumped in your chair and went "Please!" That's it, right?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: That's what makes it my favorite story. Please!
Jonah: Please!
Michael: And then for the rest of the day, you were like the please guy, right?
Jonah: Yeah, they were -
Michael: Please!
Jonah: They were so unkind.
Michael: Please!
Jonah: They'd like throw a football towards me and be like "Please!"
Michael: "Please!"
Jonah: Needless to say she dumped me very shortly after that.
Michael: She did?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Well, it shows where she's at.
Jonah: No, she's married now, and to probably a guy who's not scared of birds I imagine.
Michael: Good for her.
Jonah: But, I am terrified of winged animals.
Michael: Birds?
Jonah: Yeah, but like -
Michael: Not just birds?
Jonah: Like pigeons. Like if a pigeon -
Michael: That's a bird.
Jonah: - would like to touch my face -
Michael: What about like a bug that flies?
Jonah: I can handle that.
Michael: You know my dad, Luigi?
Jonah: Of course.
Michael: My dad is not afraid of anything except for he has a deadly fear of June bugs. He doesn't like them.
Jonah: Like the big fat ones?
Michael: Yeah. If those fly by, he like really shrinks.
Jonah: Do you have Luigi running scared of a June bug?
Michael: Yeah. Turns in to jelly, yeah.
Jonah: Has there been ... would you tell the story -
Michael: I don't know, I never got the beats by calling him -
Jonah: Would you tell the story where your dad got mad about cleaning stuff up?
Michael: Oh yeah.
Jonah: This is my favorite story about your dad.
Michael: It was like when we were really little. Me and my sisters, I don't know, it was the thing where like your dad tries to get angry and then it ends up accidentally being funny and it makes him even more angry. So he was like angry that we left stuff around and he accidentally rhymed like a Dr. Seuss rhyme. He was like, "You kids leave your things where they lay. You put them there and there they stay."
Jonah: But he screamed it.
Michael: Yeah, he was screaming it. And, we all like just burst out laughing and my mom laughed, which also took the steam —
Jonah: Set him off.
Michael: Yeah, and then he just had ... he was just -
Jonah: You leave them there and there they stay.
Michael: Also, to form a sentence that way.
Jonah: It's like there isn't anything funnier than anger because it's so rarely lands. Like when does anger like land the way you want it to land?
Michael: Yeah, that's true.
Jonah: There's like a three percent chance anger lands -
Michael: He always looked silly.
Jonah: - in the effect and intention of it.
Michael: If anger doesn't lead to violence then it's just silly.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: I mean if violence gets ... okay, it's like oh, okay, this is a situation.
Jonah: But even -
Michael: You're hitting me.
Jonah: Yeah, that's terrible. I mean anger of just like -
Michael: Silly, red in the face.
Jonah: - expressing non-violent physical -
Michael: I guess you've seen a lot of that on sets because there's as lot of like people lose their temper on sets, right?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Have you seen it?
Jonah: Yeah. My first movie was I Heart Huckabees. It was David O’Russell was the director and that was the movie he like ... all those videos -
Michael: Right, say no more. Yeah.
Jonah: - came out. He since apologized to me or kind of -
Michael: Chilled out. Yeah. Oh really?
Jonah: Yeah, he was awesome. He's actually a really ... I like seeing him quite a bit now.
Michael: That was a phase or something.
Jonah: But, I was scared of him when I was younger. Because I was 18, all I ever wanted to be was a director and it was my first set I was ever on and I was like "This is what movies are like? Holy shit!" But, I think people ... I think growing up more, I kind of understand the odd part about at least being an actor I would say is like having to express certain emotions no matter what's going on in your life.
Jonah: So, I kind of understand it more like when I had an ... you know, if I had an actor as a director sort of lose it a little bit, I understand more because they're all of a sudden having to give this ... give everything to this thing or get to this place.
Michael: I've done -
Jonah: You have no idea what's going on in their personal life. That's what I mean, you know.
Michael: That's true.
Jonah: So, it's like someone could have had like lost a relative and then they have to do this really funny scene or something.
Michael: Yeah, right. Right.
Jonah: You know, not that it's an excuse to behave poorly at work at all.
Michael: No.
Jonah: I just maybe -
Michael: Well, there's a level that where it crosses over and you're just like you're just an asshole.
Jonah: Yes.
Michael: I kind of get when people are upset about something but it's always just like ... well, it's like dad's angry or something when everything goes quiet on set and somebody's like -
Jonah: Well, Scott Robertson -
Michael: - catching the vibe.
Jonah: Scott Robertson is like -
Michael: Oh Scott, yeah.
Jonah: Scottie is the first AD on the Superbad, Moneyball, and he was the first AD, Executive Producer on Mid90s.
Michael: Oh, that's great.
Jonah: Scott like makes movies. He is like -
Michael: The engine.
Jonah: - good or bad, a first AD can make or break a film.
Michael: Totally. Totally, yeah.
Jonah: And, when Scott would get upset, which is very rare, he's so the best, but he has to be kind of like the parent in a lot of ways, even more than the director.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Jonah: So, if people are just like goofing off to much or something, the very ... it's like seeing your mom or dad lose their shit kind of.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: Even as a director, it was funny to still feel that way.
Michael: There's certain jobs where that's part of it.
Jonah: You're like whoa, okay.
Michael: Yeah, like part of actually being good at your job is sometimes you have to like show people that you're annoyed.
Jonah: They're kind of bad cop. Like they kind of have to get -
Michael: Yeah, they have to be sometimes.
Jonah: - people away. Because sets can so easily -
Michael: Yeah, you have to police the set sometimes.
Jonah: - turn to hanging out.
Michael: Yeah. It's a lot of people, it's 100 people you have to tell them all to be quiet.
Jonah: I always laugh at this point still when someone's cellphone goes off.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I remember.
Jonah: You would work on a set that like your cellphone ... that the ringer would be on -
Michael: In the take, yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, it just -
Michael: You know like when they do room tone, everybody has to go quiet, I remember you would always do the joke -
Jonah: Such a ham. Such a fucking ham. That's so embarrassing. I literally told that story the other day. Someone was doing room tone and I was like you know when I was like 21 I was so obnoxious that you have to be quiet to get the tone of the room and -
Michael: They just need it.
Jonah: And they literally need it to make the film and post production.
Michael: That's the best part is like that's the best time to try and make someone laugh.
Jonah: Yeah, I would always try to make you laugh.
Michael: Yeah, that's because it's the most thrilling thing when you're not allowed to make a sound.
Jonah: Well, let's ... okay, we're getting close to the end.
Michael: Okay. It's happened to me on stage by the way, this kind of laughing fit, with Kieran during This Is Our Youth.
Jonah: What, you were just ... what do you think it is?
Michael: Me and Kieran had a ... we both gamble a lot, like we gamble together, that's kind of ... we're both degenerate gamblers and the thing we had was we didn't want to like just trade money the whole time so we would gamble for pushups.
Jonah: That's so good. So how many -
Michael: Like pushups on demand.
Jonah: How many would it be?
Michael: It'd be like you owe me 100 pushups in the next ... they're good for the next week and then they'd expire. But, it's on demand. So like we'll go to dinner, the food'll show up and then I'll say I need 20 pushups.
Jonah: And what's the maximum you could ask for in one -
Michael: You could only dole out 20 at a time.
Jonah: Twenty, okay.
Michael: with some time in between or something like that.
Jonah: That's amazing. So you'd be in a restaurant and you'd have to -
Michael: It's like humiliation. Yeah, and then he's doing pushups and people are looking. So, I think I said like if you could do this thing on stage I'll owe you whatever, like a dare, you know. And, the thing was to do a really dumb delivery of a line. To go like okay, "That's it." There's a line in the play where he goes "Okay, that's it. Call Christian. Do this, this." And, I said if you do it like "That's it!", like an old Jimmy Durante, like really lean in to that, that was the dare, and then he did it like 100 percent.
Jonah: Like he would always do it.
Michael: He just did it.
Jonah: That's it and then you would laugh.
Michael: And, as soon as he did it, he held in that pose for a second and we looked in each others eyes and we had to both look away and then the scene went on. He kept ... but then I knew as soon as we looked at each other
Jonah: You would start laughing.
Michael: - it was gonna be bad. And then we did it and then we just broke.
Jonah: You were literally laughing in the play?
Michael: We just broke. Yeah, we were laughing for like a minute. I fell down on the bed laughing. Dying laughing. Like uncontrollable laughing. No, the audience knew that the play had broken and they were laughing too. They were like enjoying it.
Jonah: Because they knew you guys had broken?
Michael: It was like a moment. Yeah, I mean it was like the whole house ... it was fun.
Jonah: Do you get talked to by like someone after?
Michael: No, nobody did. But, I mean we felt the pressure of we have to get this thing back on the track. This play ... like you know, we can't lose the stakes of all that we've built up to this point in the play. This is like near the end. And, the payoff is coming. And, these people paid. You really have this thing in your mind of like professionalism.
Jonah: Right, because people literally spend their hard earned money for expensive theater tickets.
Michael: Yeah, and I mean they ... sometimes I think people like to see when something goes wrong in the theater. It makes it kind of a special thing.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But, I did have a sense of responsibility that made it ten times harder.
Jonah: Oh my god.
Michael: And so, it was a crazy feeling.
Jonah: I wish I could have seen that.
Michael: It was pretty special. Yeah, but we got it back. We got through the play.
Jonah: Yeah, man, you and Kieran were so good together.
Michael: I love working with him.
Jonah: He's a great actor too.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, he's an interesting guy. I don't know him very well. I only know him through you.
Michael: Yeah, well, it's funny, like they just did a big article about him in Vanity Fair, a big profile and it's funny to see your friend's life sort of like narrativized.
Jonah: Right, like they sort of tell a story, their version -
Michael: They kind of ... yeah, they do his whole life in a way.
Jonah: - of his story. Did he feel it was accurate or did you feel it was accurate?
Michael: He didn't read it I think.
Jonah: Yeah, good for him.
Michael: Or hasn't yet.
Jonah: That's such self-discipline.
Michael: Yeah, I think know why, because it must be weird to read about your life, especially he's got this kind of funny life. Hanging out with Michael Jackson.
Jonah: If I were to interview Kieran and knew that -
Michael: Like people don't -
Jonah: - would be like 100 percent of my questions.
Michael: If you're writing for Vanity Fair -
Jonah: Like what are you interested in knowing about.
Michael: Yeah, I guess it's a bit of a monkey on his back, no pun intended.
Jonah: Who's the craziest person like Michael Jackson type figure you've ever met?
Michael: I mean Michael Jackson, that's a high bar of insanity to -
Jonah: I mean him being the holy grail of like odd, eccentric figures, important figures that have eccentricity to them.
Michael: Maybe David Lynch. I got to hang out with him. I mean I don't know him very well because I just spent like a day with him but to me he seems like a person from another planet in the way that you just can't understand how they exist and how they're so great.
Jonah: And would you have conversations with him that confirmed your love or admiration for him?
Michael: Just the fact that I met him made me appreciate how open of a person he is. The way that I met him was by going and doing transcendental meditation. Like signing up for it.
Jonah: At the Lynch Foundation?
Michael: Yeah, or the TM Center. There's a few of them. You go over the course of four days to learn the method. And then on the fourth day, there was this young girl and she's like, "I'm from the David Lynch Foundation. Do you guys want to meet David Lynch and meditate with him sometime?" We were like what? Like we really just walked in there and did this for four days and then she just appeared with an invitation to go meet the master. I'm like what just happened? This is crazy.
Michael: And then, we didn't really believe her until like a month later she was like "How's Thursday at David's house?" And, he had us at his house at noon and he invited us up to his painting studio. I got there before all of my friends and I went up and met him just one on one.
Jonah: Was it awkward?
Michael: He was like, "Hey buddy. Hey, Mike." He knew who I was I think and he was like "Wow, how are you?"
Jonah: Was he wearing the black suit with the white.
Michael: I don't think so. I think he was wearing his painting stuff.
Jonah: Garb.
Michael: But, he was so ... I mean that was like a miracle to me that I could be invited to this man's home and meet him and meditate with him.
Jonah: Yeah, you just like hung out at David Lynch's house?
Michael: Yeah, we hung out for like an hour and then we all left.
Jonah: Amazing. I love that.
Michael: And then I got to work with him for like a day. And yeah, no, I mean he's like someone that I think is a different kind of person.
Jonah: That's a great answer.
Michael: Yeah. Do you have someone like that?
Jonah: Mine would be ... it wasn't a long ... it was just a great story for who the person was. I met Prince.
Michael: Oh wow! That's pretty great.
Jonah: We went to go see Prince.
Michael: Oh yeah, that's right.
Jonah: With the whole cast of High School Musical.
Michael: Yeah, right.
Jonah: On our first stop in the Superbad tour, another weird Superbad tour thing. The cast of High School Musical was on our floor.
Michael: They had a box.
Jonah: We all went to go see Prince. Yeah, they invited us.
Michael: They had like the Disney box.
Jonah: It was amazing.
Michael: That was wild.
Jonah: I met Prince many, many years ago and it was at his house I guess. And, it was a party, like it was a ... oh, I know what it was, it was when I presented the first time at the Academy Awards many, many years ago, Prince had like an after party and I think he would have like an after party, like a famous after party after them for many years. But, I was like 24 or something. And, I went and I met him and what was awesome was I met him and he was wearing a crazy Prince outfit, you know, like a cool Prince outfit. And, we said a few words and he said, "Hello. Have fun. Welcome to my house." I don't remember exactly what he said.
Jonah: And then, he excused himself and literally 20 seconds later I turn around and he's having a conversation with someone else but he's wearing a completely different outfit. And, I'll just never forget that. He had somehow ... like in the Dave Chappelle Show version of like Prince, you know, like he had literally did an outfit change in what felt to me like must have been like at tops 45 seconds.
Michael: That's crazy.
Jonah: And, that's my one image of Prince where he ... something very eccentric happened.
Michael: Wow! Like a little magic trick?
Jonah: Yeah, like just some sort of like what you would want him to do.
Michael: But, I love that what that actually ... the story that that actually tells. It's like magical. It's like you turn around and he's wearing different clothes, but the reality of it is it means this guy runs into his room and frantically changes his clothes.
Jonah: It just ... I don't know how he ... he must have had the clothes on underneath.
Michael: Yeah, he had a tearaway suit.
Jonah: He had like a tearaway Prince suit. And, like does he find that funny that he would run into people he was speaking to two minutes earlier in a completely different outfit?
Michael: Just confuse them.
Jonah: Is that like comical? Is he just so swagged out that like he's just got to have some much drip, like so many different outfits?
Michael: Yeah, that's actually -
Jonah: I love Prince, though, so rest in peace Prince.
Michael: Yeah, he was great.
Jonah: Well, Mikey, I love you.
Michael: All right, buddy. We did it.
Jonah: This was a scheduled and forced way for us to hang out while you're doing a play.
Michael: Yes. I think we should schedule this more often.
Jonah: Everybody go see The Wavery Gallery.
Michael: Waverly.
Jonah: Wave ...
Michael: Wanna take that again? Wanna take -
Jonah: Take that again. Run that back and arrange it.
Michael: The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah: What did I say?
Michael: I think you said the Wavery Garrity.
Jonah: Go see Mike in the Waderlly Warritid. And -
Michael: The Brad Garrity.
Jonah: The Brad ... go see Michael in The Brad Garrity. Okay, go see Michael in -
Michael: As Brad Garrity. I worked with Brad Garrett. All right, let's stop.
Jonah: What did you work with him on?
Michael: I want the last line to be I worked with Brad Garrett.
Jonah: And then just abruptly cut off. What did you work with Brad Garrett on?
Michael: I worked with him just like a year ago on a little movie called Gloria that Julianne Moore is Gloria.
Jonah: Oh, no way.
Michael: It's coming out soon. It's a remake of this Chilean movie called Gloria that I loved.
Jonah: Right, and the same director remade -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - the movie, right?
Michael: Yeah, Sebastian Lelio. Yeah.
Jonah: That is so cool. How was Brad Garrett?
Michael: He was great. I mean we like ... we talked about poker the whole time because he lives in Las Vegas and he plays poker.
Jonah: He lives in Las Vegas?
Michael: Yes, he does. He like owns a comedy club out there or something.
Jonah: Brad Garrett owns a comedy club in Las Vegas and lives out there? We need to go to Las Vegas and go to the Brad Garrett -
Michael: I think that's right. Yeah, let's go.
Jonah: Okay, great.
Michael: Great.
Jonah: Mikey, I love you.
Michael: Yeah, that's a plan.
Jonah: You're the best.
Michael: Love you buddy.
Jonah: I love you more than you know.
Michael: You're the best. This is great.
Jonah: Go see Michael Cera in The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Thank you.
Jonah: Co-starring with Elaine May.
Michael: Well, when does this come out, this podcast?
Jonah: January. Will you still be in the play?
Michael: Yes, we're basically done by the time it will -
Jonah: Go see the final show.
Michael: Go read about The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah: Go read about the reviews of The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Check 'em out.
Jonah: Starring Brad Garrett and Mikey Cera and -
Michael: Elaine May, together again.
Jonah: - Elaine May and Joan Allen, and Lukey Hedges.
Michael: And David Cromer.
Jonah: And David Cromer and go rent iTunes style Mid90s.
Michael: Or buy it.
Jonah: Or buy it.
Michael: Yeah, I mean talk about re-watch value.
Jonah: Talking about the re-watchability of a film.
Michael: Get the special features too.
Jonah: I've seen it like 3,000 times.
Michael: Is there a making of?
Jonah: There is lots of good behind the scenes.
Michael: That's what I want to see.
Jonah: And, there's deleted scenes.
Michael: Do you have a cut of making of out of it?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: I want to see that.
Jonah: We had really good ... because all the kids were shooting the skateboarding.
Michael: Yeah, right, oh, so you have all of that.
Jonah: Yeah, and a lot of it's on that footage.
Michael: Great. Great.
Jonah: So, it's really fun.
Michael: Oh, that sounds great. I would buy that.
Jonah: And, see Michael and I being friends, hanging out -
Michael: In life.
Jonah: - in life.
Michael: Yeah, unless anything goes wrong.
Last month, we invited them on the podcast to catch up and reflect on their twelve year friendship. Topics covered include: the surreal experience of overnight fame, Spanish movie marketing, establishing boundaries, theater people, drinking beers with Elaine May, Jonah's fear of winged animals, on-demand pushups, degenerate gambling, and why everyone should own a digital copy of Mid90s.
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Speaker: Hey, and welcome back to the A24 Podcast. Today's guest became best friends in 2007 while traveling the world together on the marathon press tour for Superbad. In the 12 years since, Jonah Hill and Michael Cera have stayed close as their careers continue to expand in new directions. This past year, Jonah made his incredible film making debut with Mid90s while Michael Cera has further established himself as a formidable Broadway actor earning raves for his performance in Kenneth Lonergan's play The Waverly Gallery. Despite their busy schedules, we helped them find an hour to sit down and finally catch up.
Jonah: We're starting right now. I'm Jonah Hill.
Michael: I'm Michael Cera.
Jonah: This is Michael Cera and we've been friends for almost 12 years, maybe even longer now I believe. Maybe 13 years.
Michael: When do you consider our friendship starting? That's the question.
Jonah: I consider it starting -
Michael: I think halfway through shooting maybe, Superbad.
Jonah: That's when you consider it to start?
Michael: No, that's when I felt like, "Oh, you really love me."
Jonah: Well, I felt earlier.
Michael: You did?
Jonah: Yeah, I felt during the ... we should start by saying we were in a movie called Superbad together.
Michael: Let's give a lot of context, yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, we'll go back. We are -
Michael: Anybody that goes out of the way to listen to this I think doesn't need too much preface.
Jonah: How do these two chaps know one another?
Michael: I mean who's just randomly listening to this?
Jonah: What a weird combination of people to throw together for a podcast. But, we were told when we both got the part that we ... Judd Apatow told me just hang.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Like his only directive was really to hang out.
Michael: Become friends.
Jonah: We obviously had this like ... this movie that stuck around for a long time, but we also went through something very similar at the same time together. Very unique. Like a super unique experience at the same time together.
Michael: Being what?
Jonah: Just like being in a movie. Like one day ... I mean people knew who we were from -
Michael: Yeah, from one day to the next. Yeah.
Jonah: - Arrested Development but it was still very like ... yeah, we'd go to Canter's and it'd be like some nerd like us being like "Hey, you're awesome on Arrested Development" and you'd be like "Thanks." And it was just -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Jonah: And then we were in this movie and then the day after it came out -
Michael: It was very different.
Jonah: Very different. And, what was awesome though, was that right as it came out here and things were very gnarly in that way, they sent us to other countries together. You, me and Chris.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, that's what I remember. The tour of that is what you and I always end up talking about.
Michael: That was amazing. They didn't like us in Italy.
Jonah: No. No.
Michael: They didn't like the movie.
Jonah: And Spain.
Michael: Spain they didn't like us?
Jonah: Well, I don't know if it was they didn't like us but remember they ... the poster -
Michael: The way they marketed it.
Jonah: - was the funniest thing of all time. You want to tell this story/
Michael: Yeah, they made it like it was a porno. There was bras hanging off of it like -
Jonah: It was called Supersalidos, which is “Super Horny.”
Michael: Yeah, that's always really weird. It's called Super Horny and if you look at our faces on the poster and you put the title Super Horny there -
Jonah: Do you remember what the poster was?
Michael: Yeah,, it was just ... oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: No, no, this story's crazy. Okay, so Emma Stone's character, in Spain they were like really trying to make comedy, American comedies, we were like okay, we can break an American comedy in Spain, which I guess doesn't happen or didn't happen at that time. So, they hired a very famous actress to be Emma's voice.
Michael: Yeah, she was doing the voice dubbing.
Jonah: Voice dubbing for Emma Stone's character in Superbad and then the poster was her, not Emma, was the famous actress in Spain -
Michael: Photoshopped in.
Jonah: - photoshopped in, not Emma Stone, even though she was just a voice, and then between her legs -
Michael: Weird concept.
Jonah: - were me, Michael, and Chris like looking out.
Michael: Drooling.
Jonah: Like drooling.
Michael: And it's called Super Horny.
Jonah: It was called Super Horny. We were driving around Spain like what the fuck.
Michael: What is happening to us?
Jonah: This is so weird and not -
Michael: And in Italy, in the scene where we're like cuddling in the sleeping bags, they started kissing.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: We're like ewww, no.
Jonah: And also was amazing because we first got to hear our voices, like the dubbed -
Michael: Yeah, yeah, the dubbed over. It was fantastic.
Jonah: Yeah, it was like oh.
Michael: Well, I still keep in touch with my ... the guy who dubbed me, David. Do you remember him?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: He was four feet tall. He had long red hair down to his ass. He rode around Rome on a moped. He was like "I have never met one of my actors. I've been doing Elijah Wood since Radio Flyer." And then remember, the moped, he was ... we saw all these people cruising through traffic on the mopeds and he was one of these guys and I was like, "Aren't you scared to get hit by a car" and he was like "I'm very afraid for my life." David.
Jonah: That's so fucked up man.
Michael: But, talking about things changing in a weird way over night, I remember something that happened right when Superbad came out was a few months before it came out, a friend of mine, this girl, Nicole, had a birthday party where I grew up in like some -
Jonah: In Brampton?
Michael: - gymnasium in Brampton. She rented it out and a bunch of friends got in there and hung out for the night and -
Jonah: That's kind of a cool birthday party.
Michael: Yeah, it was nice. It was like all my high school friends. We had just graduated and everything. So, there was this girl Melinda that I used to know. I was I guess hanging out with her, talking with her over the course of the evening and then like a little later in the night, this guy comes up to me and he's trying to kick my ass, like in a blind rage. He's drunk and my friends are holding him back. He's like, "I'm gonna kill that guy. I'm gonna kill him."
Jonah: No, no cause for it? Just like -
Michael: I've never seen this guy. No, I -
Jonah: - wants to fight?
Michael: I didn't even know this person existed before and then he's like really about to ... and I was just kind of standing there laughing because I thought he had me mistaken. I was like this is so unfounded -
Jonah: You clearly think I'm someone else.
Michael: Yeah, it was like what is happening and I guess he had seen me talking to her and he was dating her. And, it made him crazy because he was a psychotic person. Like he ... I don't know. He got very drunk and then decided he had to murder me or something. And then, everybody kind of calmed him down. So then, when Superbad came out a month or so later, I was out with my ... this is the only interaction I've ever had with this man.
Jonah: So, interaction one is he tries to kill you?
Michael: Yes. Yes, and then he kind of ... and then he's like, you know, frothing at the mouth. So then I'm at a bar, which is already kind of a misguided choice, like I realize kind of after it was way too much heat on us at the time to just go out to a bar. It was insane in there. I mean I was not used to being this recognizable that quickly and everybody in the bar was all over me.
Jonah: And also everyone's really inebriated.
Michael: Yes, everybody ... like there's no boundaries. Everybody's physical with you and everything. I just was learning that this is not the best ... it was a lot of pressure.
Jonah: Yeah, not the best forum for you to walk around.
Michael: No, but I mean I was just out with my friends. And then this guy sits down next to me, his name was Matt something and he was like, "Hey, Mike. How are you man?" It was like "Oh, hey man." I'm like whoa.
Jonah: You recognize him as the guy who's trying to ... yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I'll never forget his face. And I'm like hey. I'm kind of treating him like you talk to a pit bull or something. He's being nice now. I'm just petting him. And, he's like, "How are you man?" He seems like the sweetest guy. I was like, "I'm good. How are you?" He's like, "I'm good." He goes, "I had no idea you were an actor." I was like yeah. Yeah. He's like, "So you go out to L.A. and stuff? You work out there occasionally?" And I was like, "Yeah. I mean yeah." He goes, "God, I'd love to visit you out there sometime." I swear to God. And I was just like what is this coming to?
Jonah: He wanted to stay with you?
Michael: Yeah, he's like, "Man, let's keep in touch. Don't be a stranger."
Jonah: So what did that tell you about your newfound circumstance?
Michael: I don't know. It told me a lot about this person. I mean this just very psychotic person. I don't know.
Jonah: Right, like very unhinged.
Michael: And this is his perception of the experiences in the world. The way things are -
Jonah: Well, did you find that that kind of thing happened a lot or did you -
Michael: That was funny. No. I mean that was unusual, but that was -
Jonah: He was an extreme circumstance.
Michael: That was extremely funny that things could turn that much of a way that quick.
Jonah: So how long did he stay with you?
Michael: I mean we ... he's now my personal assistant. We've been together 12 years. He's outside the room.
Jonah: I did see him out there.
Michael: And, he's always in a state of either kicking my ass or loving me. We just live on that. We walk that fine line.
Jonah: That was the guy beating the shit out of you outside?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Oh, so that's Matt?
Michael: Yeah, well, you know, he was annoyed about the coffee that - I deserved it. Honestly, I deserved it. I got him the wrong kind of coffee this morning.
Jonah: Do you remember, one of my favorite bits somehow is when we were in ... we were on that tour and we were in Spain, I only remember because I still, when I get on ... I was on an airplane yesterday and I still -
Michael: Oh yeah, of course.
Jonah: - think about it all the time.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: So we're on a plane in Spain and the plane smells like feces.
Michael: Yeah, there's no other way to say it really.
Jonah: It's like the most terrible smell you've ever -
Michael: It had that real kind of human feces smell to it.
Jonah: This was not a bad odor that reminded us of feces, this was -
Michael: No. It was unacceptable. Yeah, it was not something you want to hang out with for three hours in the air.
Jonah: And, we were grounded. We couldn't take off. That's why it was crazy. So, we were not even in the air and we were stuck for like three hours on the tarmac and it smelled like feces and we kept ... the bit was basically about how the pilot was making an announcement, it was a Spanish pilot, and that he was excusing that we were on a new kind of plane that was actually assembled and built from -
Michael: Yeah, made entirely of shit.
Jonah: Of shit.
Michael: But, I think it was exciting. It was like a thing that they were proud of. Everybody from the town had contributed. People were very proud.
Jonah: Exactly. Everything, the wings and -
Michael: I think that that was probably a survival mechanism.
Jonah: I have contributed. The townspeople had contributed as well.
Michael: We did the whole flight.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But, it was probably just to distract ourselves from how awful the -
Jonah: It was truly fucking insane.
Michael: We needed some way to deal with it.
Jonah: And, for 12 years, pretty consistently I'd say at least twice a month we do that bit.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Where the plane is ... the pilot is giving an announcement -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - of pride that the plane that we are on is made of feces.
Michael: There were a bunch of those. Like twice we snapped at each other I remember.
Jonah: What was it?
Michael: Because it was very unusual. Oh, just ... we were just tired and impatient.
Jonah: But do you remember what the emphasis was?
Michael: Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. I do. We were at a photoshoot, the three of us at some putting place that glowed in the dark. Do you remember?
Jonah: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Michael: And the photographer wanted me to do something -
Jonah: This was in Marina - this was by the airport. This was -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, by LAX. Right?
Jonah: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: And, the photographer kept telling me to do something, to jump or something and I didn't want to do it and you were like "Just do it so we can get out of here." And, I was like "Fuck off. Don't tell me to do it." I remember, and it was tense moment and I felt really weird telling you ... I was like why am I saying this to Jonah, but I think we were just tired. It's like -
Jonah: Like they literally had every ... basically like threw pies in our face.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, they ... yeah.
Jonah: Like it was this close to slipping on a banana peel and I'm just like dude -
Michael: Oh, that's -
Jonah: - I want to go home. Fucking jump up in the air.
Michael: I mean I think probably since then have you developed like ... now I know how to kind of
Jonah: Yeah, to politely and respectfully -
Michael: - I don't know, advocate for myself. Yeah, in these situations.
Jonah: You, I will say were always ... I tell you this all the time, and when I interview you for that Zine that we did for A24, my interview with you and my sister are my two favorites, but you even at 19 had like a very good boundary, self protection of what felt right for you and what didn't. I really didn't have any self protection of what felt goofy or what felt like I was betraying myself in some way. I think you have really good boundaries even when you were a kid. You kind of knew what felt shitty and what felt good and were able to stand up for yourself in a lot of ways.
Michael: Yeah. I think maybe what I've learned since then is how to stand up for yourself but not have it be tense.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: Because I use to really feel like at war or something if I had a boundary and I needed to protect it. You feel like just put pressure on you. Like the silence, you know, when there's like press people there and they're like "We want you to do this thing" and you're like "I really don't want to do it." They just go quiet and like you've said something really awful.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: Just say to me "I don't want to do it."
Jonah: This feels like weird, I don't want to do it.
Michael: Oh. Um, okay. Well. You know that moment?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: That puts an enormous amount of pressure on you. I used to have a publicist and sometimes I'd feel like when there's not too much to do because I don't need to get a lot of clothes for me or something or hair and makeup, my publicist, I feel like she would start fights with people just to kind of feel like she was -
Jonah: Had a job that was important.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, just to throw her weight around or just to be there. So, I would sometimes be in a fight with a photographer without even knowing it. And, the photographer would be angry at me. And, this happened one time with this photographer and she wanted me to wear a hat I didn't want to wear and then she pulled me aside, she was like, "What's your fucking problem? Why aren't you gonna do any of this shit?" And, I was like "What do you mean? I don't even know what we're talking about here."
Jonah: Someone you don't know is upset with you, going "What's your fucking problem" -
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: - and you're 19?
Michael: Yeah. That kind of alerted me. I was like oh man, I've got to just speak for myself here.
Jonah: I want to talk about the play you're doing now, which I have not seen, which I feel like a horrible friend.
Michael: Oh no, there's lots of time.
Jonah: But, I see all of your plays honestly.
Michael: Yeah, you'll see it. I mean we're going 'til February. So, you know, there's -
Jonah: Yeah, I'm waiting for you to get in the rhythm a little bit.
Michael: Yeah, like let us click -
Jonah: I know it takes usually six to eight months to get in the rhythm of things.
Michael: Yeah. Come as late as possible.
Jonah: No, but like even now, it's been amazing to watch you kind of like understand ... you have this beautiful thing going especially with Kenneth Lonergan and you've become this really formidable Broadway actor.
Michael: Thank you.
Jonah: Yeah, it's amazing.
Michael: Yeah, it's ... I mean yeah, it's kinda just weird how it happened I guess. I mean it just happened -
Jonah: Not just a Broadway actor but I mean like -
Michael: Yeah, just ... yeah.
Jonah: You have this very formidable theater career, and especially a partnership with Kenneth.
Michael: Yeah, I still feel quite out of place though doing it. I feel like ... you know, it's funny, Lucas -
Jonah: Why's that?
Michael: I don't know, because I don't have any language for theater. Like Lucas and David Cromer, who plays the stepfather in the play and he's actually a theater director. He directed The Band’s Visit who just won a Tony.
Jonah: Tell them the name of the play.
Michael: Oh, The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah:The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Starring Elaine May, which is kind of the whole thing.
Jonah: And Lucas Hedges and Michael Cera.
Michael: And Lucas, yeah. And, Joan Allen, me and David.
Jonah: Oh, Joan Allen?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: But, we're gonna get in to the whole Elaine May, like -
Michael: Yeah, that's a whole thing.
Jonah: Because I haven't even gotten to catch up with you because -
Michael: Yeah, I know.
Jonah: This is actually a forced time for us to hang out because you're in the play, it's so hard to like -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, we're doing it after this.
Jonah: Yeah, you literally have a hard out to go do it.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And so, I want to hear all of that Elaine May, but go on. Yeah.
Michael: David and Lucas and I share a floor in the theater and David and Lucas have a shared language about theater, like they make inside jokes about theater people and stuff and the world and they sing songs from musicals and everything. There's this whole thing and I'm like this is not my world at all.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: So, I feel a bit like an intruder in there. And, you just feel that ... the audiences are the same people as these guys. Like they have this deep ... like that's their obsession, their world. They know the whole language of it. Everybody, every show, every song.
Jonah: Someone used the term last night that I loved which was that someone was talking to me about this kind of thing where they go the audience is narrow but it's deep as hell. You know, so it's like a narrow ... it's a certain type of person, so it's like narrow but it's so deep, meaning like there are people that are obsessed with -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - theater like you're saying.
Michael: Yeah, that's right. Apparently David said there's a message board called All That Chat that -
Jonah: I'm going on. I'm literally getting a fake troll account and going so deep to talk shit about you on this.
Michael: Please, just like destroy my reputation on there.
Jonah: I met Michael Cera outside the theater and I feel -
Michael: He spit in my face. I don't know, maybe where he comes from that's a sign of respect.
Jonah: But what's the chatter?
Michael: And, there's people that live in Florida or live in Seattle -
Jonah: That are obsessive.
Michael: - that are obsessed with Broadway and that they have a comment and an opinion on every show.
Jonah: My sister is like ... I mean that's Beanie.
Michael: Oh really?
Jonah: Yeah, Beanie like grew up obsessed -
Michael: That was her thing?
Jonah: Beanie, Ben Platt, they grew up together. They're best friends. That is their like hip hop for me or something.
Michael: Their beacon.
Jonah: Or movies for us, you know? Yeah, it's amazing. And, Scott Rudin's like that.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Jonah: You know Scott Rudin who produced Mid90s and Waverly Gallery, Michael's play.
Michael: He's like the king of Broadway.
Jonah: He's the king of Broadway. He's kind of the king of everything but he ... when you really see him light up is when he talks about a play.
Michael: Oh yeah. Yeah, I wish I could hold my own with those guys but I just ... that's just not my world. I'm kind of a visitor in it.
Jonah: But maybe that gives you some unique perspective to working in the medium, you know?
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I mean the only plays I've worked on are Kenneth Lonergan plays and I was talking about this with my girlfriend the other day that actually his plays ... the thing that really gives it its force is its realism. The tone and the way that he captures language and conversation.
Jonah: Yeah, there's nothing "Broadway" about it actually. Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I mean it's hard to do an interpretation of one of his plays in a very avant-garde way or something because the thing that makes them really sing is that they sound like people talking.
Jonah: People talking, yeah. You know, it's funny because I saw you for the first time when your first time on Broadway, This Is Our Youth and you were amazing. You, Kieran Culkin and Tavi Gevinson, is that how you say her last name?
Michael: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Jonah: And, I was obviously so proud. I think I was like so shocked that you were ... I think I was just so excited and shocked. I was like just high off of seeing you up there. And then, by the time I saw Lobby Hero, which was your second play, I was like holy shit, Michael is a serious actor in this realm. You know what I mean?
Michael: Oh yeah. I would love to see you do it.
Jonah: That play -
Michael: I would love to see you on stage for it.
Jonah: I don't ... I'm so curious if I'd have the patience for it.
Michael: Yeah, it's -
Jonah: I think I'd be better at writing a play than acting in one.
Michael: Totally. It's like a ... it's a bit of a marathon.
Jonah: Yeah, just because I'm so ... I get so sick of it, I can't even -
Michael: You did write a play. I loved the play that you guys did.
Jonah: Oh yeah, Spike Jones and I wrote a play.
Michael: That was great.
Jonah: Yeah, I think I liked writing a play more than watching the actors get ready for it.
Michael: I loved that show.
Jonah: Spike Jones and I wrote a play called 100% Cotton.
Michael: That was really cool.
Jonah: Thank you. That we did one night only and then destroyed.
Michael: Can I describe -
Jonah: Yeah, sure.
Michael: - my experience of when it first started?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: I'm sure this is how you guys designed it but it blew me away. So, you kind of let in through this door on the street. You don't really know quite where you are.
Jonah: You have no idea. It's in an alley.
Michael: Yeah, you're in an alley. And then, you're brought up under these like bleachers and there's only a few rows. There's like how many people, 100 people maybe.
Jonah: Maybe. Yeah.
Michael: And then there's a big curtain and then when the curtain opens, you realize you're in the Metropolitan Opera and what's behind the curtain is the house, like the auditorium.
Jonah: So you get a view that only the performers -
Michael: Which is enormous.
Jonah: - would see.
Michael: Yeah, so you're viewing from the stage of the house and you guys used that whole space for the show.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: With people wearing head mics, like way the hell up and far away. That was great. It was like stunning when that opened up and you're like this is where we are?
Jonah: See, I was so used to it, like I didn't have -
Michael: Yeah. Oh that was a great reveal.
Jonah: I knew that was the idea of it, I wish I could get that perspective.
Michael: It was very cool. It was very cool.
Jonah: It was fun. It was so great that you were there.
Michael: Yeah, that was a great show. Was it fun to write that?
Jonah: Yeah, like to me, I think writing ... writing gives me the most joy out of everything.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: I like love writing. I love -
Michael: It was a good show.
Jonah: - just watching great actors like say the words that you wrote. I would love to write a play that you were in.
Michael: That'd be fun.
Jonah: Even though you're used to Kenny Lonergan, which would be taking a major step down for your next one. But, when I saw you in the lobby here -
Michael: That'd be great.
Jonah: - I was like holy shit, Michael really smashed it. I couldn't believe how much you carried a play with just you and Brian really talking to each other. Brian Tyree Henry, another brilliant actor.
Michael: Yeah, it's a great show.
Jonah: And, you didn't have a flashy part.
Michael: Right.
Jonah: You know, and I was like the fact that we're just watching Michael and another actor on a stage riveting you for two hours or however long it is, I was like Michael has just become like a fucking beast of an actor.
Michael: That's great, man.
Jonah: I already knew you were a beast of an actor but I think it's different.
Michael: It's a different experience, yeah.
Jonah: It's different than watching you do film. Well, it's just different than watching you in a film than watching you really just have dialogue basically.
Michael: Yeah. Did you, as a friend watching your friend in a play, did you feel nervous about it?
Jonah: No, I was just excited.
Michael: How cool.
Jonah: I knew you're someone who like doesn't miss in my mind. You know what I mean? Like you kind of ... I don't know, you have just never missed. I've never seen you in something and been like -
Michael: Oh, that's nice.
Jonah: - "Man, Michael wasn't good in that." I've never seen you miss. You're my favorite actor.
Michael: That's so sweet. Oh man, that's really sweet. Well, the thing actually like something I think you would like about theater, you do the show so many times, you do it over and over and there are shows that you feel terrible about. You just feel like they're not clicking in to ... you have like your own personal system of grading each show. You can't help but compare and contrast them based on the audience response and what they're feeding you and how you feel you're doing or how comfortable you feel or how authentic you feel or something. It's kind of a good Buddhist exercise to -
Jonah: To let go?
Michael: - let it go. Yeah, let it go. Like a sandcastle that just gets washed away after each one and there's no record of it. It's just like okay, that 700 people think that I'm talentless. The next might be into it.
Jonah: Am I gonna focus on that or do I have to be in today?
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, it's just they bring in groups of people and each of them see whatever you can do that day.
Jonah: I would like that.
Michael: And, that's their opinion of you. It's interesting. Yeah.
Jonah: I would like that because what I need in life the most is the experiences you experience. Being in the results business is like a failure.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good thing about theater. I mean sometimes afterwards you're like huh, nobody'll ever know I did that. There's no record of that work, although there is, but -
Jonah: Right, in movies it's even harder because there's such a public record of you fucking up.
Michael: A permanent record. Yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, exactly. It's like I love that about it. I've never heard it put like that and that you have to kind of let it go immediately and go on to the next one.
Michael: I had the same kind of experience in the writer's room when I was in there for Arrested Development. Same kind of like, I don't know, zen acceptance thing.
Jonah: Like whatever you write that day you -
Michael: Yeah, some days you really contribute. Some days you really pull your weight and you say something funny and it gets in the script, and some days you really just sit there and nothing comes to you.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But you just can't -
Jonah: But what is it? I guess this is such a Buddhist life thing, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: So, it's like on those days, I so know what you're talking about. Any day you're writing and doing anything, you're like -
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, totally. There's good days and bad days.
Jonah: Good days and bad days, so you go home and you're like wow, I really ... I fucking like -
Michael: Had a breakthrough.
Jonah: Had some real great shit today.
Michael: Right.
Jonah: Or, a day where literally just zero.
Michael: A waste of a day. Yeah.
Jonah: Is the idea that you go home and kind of feel pride in that day or shame in that day, or is it that you just go it was what it was, don't let either one ... it was just that you were doing it is the idea?
Michael: I think that and maybe just to like get over your self evaluation. Actually, the thing that I really appreciate about doing the theater ... actually, the point I was making was you'll have a show that you feel really terrible about, that just happens. And, sometimes your friends are there on those days. And, your friend'll come back and tell you they loved it and you'll say "Well, no, I had a really bad show tonight" and they'll be like "Well, you can never tell." However, you're perceiving what's happening has actually nothing to do with what the audience is experiencing.
Jonah: See, as a human being, whatever I'm feeling, I assume everyone can just know that. Maybe I'm getting better at it now because I'm aware of it. But, if I felt like depressed or horrible, I assumed anyone I encounter, like I'm like a clear window and they can just see it, but you realize no, they don't ... they reflect whatever they want to on to you.
Michael: Exactly. I wonder if that ... I don't know, I feel like part of kind of really getting to know yourself and know how you feel about things and not base that on what other people think is part of growing up.
Jonah: Yeah. Like knowing your actions and your -
Michael: Yeah, and where you stand on things.
Jonah: - worth.
Michael: Having your own compass in life.
Jonah: It is. It makes your friendships deeper. It makes your relationships deeper when you have that.
Michael: Yeah, there's this line ... did you ever watch What Planet Are You From, the Garry Shandling movie?
Jonah: Yeah, of course.
Michael: Yeah, which I think ... like I know Garry really hated that movie.
Jonah: That was my favorite part in the Garry doc that Judd did.
Michael: Talking about that movie?
Jonah: Yeah, just because you're like wow, Garry Shandling and Mike Nichols, like two of my heroes got together -
Michael: Yeah, and John Goodman, Craig Shaner.
Jonah: Yeah, but just the minds of Garry and Mike Nichols -
Michael: yeah, and Mike Nichols.
Jonah: - getting together and you're like -
Michael: It was so perfect.
Jonah: - it was such a disaster and they hated each other.
Michael: They hated each other. It's really sad.
Jonah: Do you think Garry was like ... and we can go on a whole like Garry podcast basically -
Michael: Uh-huh (affirmative). Of course, yeah.
Jonah: - because you were closer to him than I was but I had a lot of good experiences with Garry.
Michael: Yeah, I know. I remember the night that you guys met. I remember that.
Jonah: Yeah, where was it?
Michael: Seth was doing some charity thing.
Jonah: Oh, right.
Michael: Yeah, it was like an evening celebrating Seth Rogen or something. That was kind of like the joke, pretense of it, right, and Garry was there. And, you were just talking to him. You just sat and talked with him at a table at the end of the night and I was there with Nic Kesinovic and all her friends. And, we were getting ready to go and Garry was just like clicked in to you and talking to you and you were glowing because it was I think a big moment for you. And, we were like, "Hey man, we're getting ready to go."
Jonah: Oh, he gave me a ride home.
Michael: Yeah, he was like "Well, we're just talking. Do you guys mind if we just talk for a little longer?" And, you were just like ... I was really happy for you because you just seemed like you'd been like anointed. It was really nice.
Jonah: Meeting him, as you know, you and him got close, it -
Michael: It was the best thing ever, yeah.
Jonah: I mean he's just as magical as anyone would ever like.
Michael: Yeah, that was a big gift.
Jonah: And a big loss.
Michael: Yeah, I really miss him a lot.
Jonah: What a monumental brain and figure.
Michael: Ah, he was a great person. Oh, but the line in that movie, because he wrote that movie, and I think this is basically Garry's philosophy, is it's a line that Annette Bening says, she's like, "What's your goal in life?" And he's like, "I don't know." And, she goes, "Well, my goal is to get to know myself so that I can stop thinking about myself and start focusing on others." It really feels like that's basically Garry's life philosophy.
Jonah: Right. And, if you look at -
Michael: And, he said it through her.
Jonah: If you look at principles of lots of different things that have helped a lot of people, whether they're religion or programs or things like that, it's basically get out of self and give to other people.
Michael: Yeah, it sounds nice.
Jonah: Anytime you're in yourself, even beating yourself up is so selfish because it's about you.
Michael: Totally.
Jonah: Even if you're being really unkind to yourself, it's a selfish act because it's just about you.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: Before we move on, can now we talk about Elaine May?
Michael: Oh yeah.
Jonah: Because I haven't even gotten to ask you as friend yet about all of the shit -
Michael: Yeah, we haven't talked about her.
Jonah: - because you've been so busy. But, I want to know what has that been like? Elaine May is the star of Michael's play, one of the stars of Michael's play and she was Mike Nichols' comedy partner.
Michael: Yeah, and they did their show at the Golden Theater, which is where we're doing the show.
Jonah: Wow!
Michael: Yeah, they -
Jonah: Did she have crazy ... I mean obviously must say cool shit about that.
Michael: What did she ... I mean she's just like yeah, it was just the two of us. We didn't even need all this space because there's like 12 dressing rooms. They're like we just ... we're just on this first floor.
Jonah: So what has been some of the most interesting topics that you've gotten in to with her?
Michael: You know the sad thing is that -
Jonah: Or things you've learned.
Michael: Well, since we've gotten out of rehearsals and we're just performing the show, I kind of hardly see her. We have to like construct situations where we overlap.
Jonah: Right because now you just go and do the show.
Michael: You just get to the theater ... yeah, and I see her on stage. So, sometimes we'll hang back after the show and like ... she likes Stout so I'll bring her Stout.
Jonah: The beer?
Michael: Yeah, there's ... yeah, she loves it. There's this really good Stout called Mexican Cake, which is like ... it's got chocolate and cinnamon and habanero pepper in it. It's a really thick ... it's like tar.
Jonah: Amazing.
Michael: And so I'll -
Jonah: So you bring her a keg of that?
Michael: I bring her a keg of that. I get her real loose and then you get her drunk and then she'll tell you everything.
Jonah: So you literally just kick back and have a beer with Elaine May sometimes after the show?
Michael: Sometimes, yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: Like you'll never forget that the rest ... I mean that is -
Michael: No, those are the best. Yeah, those are the best.
Jonah: She's one of my top ... she's my top five heroes of all time -
Michael: Oh yeah, she's the great ... well, you have to overlap -
Jonah: She's the greatest.
Michael: - with her.
Jonah: She's also one of the first huge female directors like at a very early time.
Michael: I know, that's the most incredible thing.
Jonah: Really pioneered female directors.
Michael: And she will stare down the studios. Like with Mikey and Nicky.
Jonah: And, A New Leaf was her first movie with Walter Matthau and it has one of my favorite sequences of all time in it. The movie's about Walter Matthau's a rich guy who loses all of his money and then dates Elaine May, who is like a wacky weirdo and has inheritance, a wealthy New York person. But, she's like really wacky and you wouldn't want to date her is the idea, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: But, Walter Matthau loses all of his money and he's such a shallow guy obsessed with being rich and there's a sequence, it's one of the funniest sequences in a movie ever -
Michael: Oh, when he's talking to his accountant?
Jonah: No, where he says goodbye to being rich and he sadly does all the things he does as a rich person for the last time. So, he's kind of like almost crying and saying goodbye to eating at this fancy restaurant, like getting tailored for a suit, but he's very upset in a way that only Walter Matthau could pull off so brilliantly.
Michael: Oh, man. Yeah. They were really great together.
Jonah: I want to hear an Elaine May story before we go. Imagine like getting to spend an afternoon with Mike Nichols and Elaine May.
Michael: Oh my god, yeah.
Jonah: I think if I could ... you know one of those things like who would you have dinner with.
Michael: I think they were friends 'til the end. She talks about him with great affection.
Jonah: I think that would be my like ... people are like Jesus or whatever, I think I literally would have dinner with -
Michael: The two of them.
Jonah: - Elaine May and Mike Nichols.
Michael: Did you ever see there's a video on YouTube of the two of them talking like at the Y or something, the 92nd Street Y.
Jonah: No.
Michael: It's great. It's kind of like what you're saying. Like you just get to see them just hang out and talk.
Jonah: And they just riff off each other.
Michael: Yeah, they talk about their careers and they talk about, you know, everything. It's really nice.
Jonah: Reds is one of my favorite movies and Elaine May wrote so much of Reds. She came in to write so much, is the story of that movie.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I've never seen it.
Jonah: It's such a good movie.
Michael: Yeah, I've got to see it.
Jonah: It's ... maybe it's a masterpiece.
Michael: Jack Nicholson's in it, right?
Jonah: Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty -
Michael: Warren Beatty, yeah.
Jonah: - directed it and stars in it.
Michael: Won like an Academy Award for it, right?
Jonah: He won like all of them I think.
Michael: Right. Yeah.
Jonah: I think it was the one where he won like -
Michael: He swept.
Jonah: - every category.
Michael: I think that movie is the reason Ishtar exists because he was indebted to Elaine.
Jonah: Right, so he was like he owed her.
Michael: Yeah, he wanted to get this movie made.
Jonah: I want to watch Ishtar now with where I'm at cinematically in my mind to see if it is bad or deserves the hatred or -
Michael: I don't think it's like nearly as bad as the -
Jonah: As the vitriol for it.
Michael: Yeah, being like synonymous ... I think the thing that happened is that it just lost like an incredible amount of money.
Jonah: Right, it was expensive and didn't make money.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it ended her film career.
Jonah: That's so crazy.
Michael: For now.
Jonah: But, she wrote The Birdcage.
Michael: Yeah, she went on writing.
Jonah: Which to me is the single funniest comedy ... it's like maybe my favorite comedy. I just ... there's so much I think about on a daily basis from that movie. Even like Gene Hackman, when he's so taken with Nathan Lane as the mom.
Michael: Oh yeah, right.
Jonah: He was like "You were just such a charming woman." And obviously there's like Hank Azaria.
Michael: Yeah, he's amazing. I mean he kind of steals it.
Jonah: I mean it's like as good as it gets pretty much.
Michael: And then you have like Robin Williams was being basically held back all through it. You have to tell ... I love that take on it.
Jonah: My bit about The Birdcage is that Robin Williams, it's maybe my favorite performance of his.
Michael: Very subdued.
Jonah: It's so subdued and he's the straight man of the movie and Nathan Lane is the comedic figure basically of the film.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, it's just like there are fucking ankle weights on Robin Williams the entire movie, and then there's that one moment where he's showing ... he's directing the play and he's showing -
Michael: For the grandmother.
Jonah: For the grandmother, like Mike Nichols is just like thumb on him, like holding him down the entire movie.
Michael: It's like just let him go.
Jonah: And, Mike Nichols is like I'm too exhausted. Fuck it.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And just Robin Williams is just Robin Williams for five minutes.
Michael: Yeah, let him shine for that one scene in the movie.
Jonah: And the rest of the time he's fully in character as the straight man of the movie, but like he cannot help himself.
Michael: It's really great.
Jonah: But, it's just funny because you see him ... it's almost like he's miserable containing that the entire movie and he just fucking can't help himself.
Michael: But he's really great too as that -
Jonah: He's so heartbreaking.
Michael: - that guy. I just got reminded of my favorite story of yours.
Jonah: What?
Michael: Speaking of birds ... the story where a bird almost flew in to you.
Jonah: Oh my god, yeah.
Michael: This is the story of yours that I tell people the most because it's my favorite thing.
Jonah: Go ahead. I'm literally just tallying up that scene from The Birdcage, so you can go ahead and tell this story.
Michael: You want me to tell it?
Jonah: Yeah, you tell it.
Michael: Me tell it?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Okay, I mean it's your story.
Jonah: I know but maybe it'd be more interesting to hear you tell it.
Michael: But, it kills me. Okay, you'll see my interpretation -
Jonah: Interpretation of it.
Michael: - of it down over the years because you told me this ten years ago.
Jonah: Yeah. This was longer than that.
Michael: Correct me if I get it wrong. So you're dating this girl.
Jonah: Yeah, my first like serious girlfriend, Sydney.
Michael: Yes, and you went to meet her family at their house.
Jonah: No, already wrong.
Michael: Okay.
Jonah: We're at her brother's high school graduation.
Michael: Oh, so it was a big event like that?
Jonah: At a restaurant at the beach. Her brother and her dad and his friends are all -
Michael: Playing football or something.
Jonah: - bro, like jocks.
Michael: Right, and they're all getting down squirming in the sand together.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Like muscles rippling.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Right. Writhing on each other.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Doing some masculine stuff.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: And, you're sitting with the women talking, right? And they were like come play ... weren't they like "Hey, come play in the game" and you're like, "No"?
Jonah: No, they took a break because the men were all around. So, the men all came back to the -
Michael: So they're hanging out, yeah, right.
Jonah: Yeah, and everyone's kind of hanging out and we're sitting in these chairs like eating lunch.
Michael: But you were already feeling not like the most masculine person on the beach because you didn't play the game?
Jonah: One hundred percent didn't ... it was like full like Wedding Crashers style. They were playing football and I didn't want to partake and was talking that out like -
Michael: Right, you guys were folding napkins at the table.
Jonah: - feelings. Yeah. And, they sit back down and everyone ... like the men are like exhausted from the big football match.
Michael: Right, chugging Gatorade.
Jonah: Yeah, and just sort of like patting each other on the back and blah, blah, blah.
Michael: Tousling hair.
Jonah: You can take it from here.
Michael: Yeah, okay, so the thing that happened that really makes it a great story is that so there was a bird that nearly flew ... or flew by you, right? Like flew by your head?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: What's the non-exaggerated version of it?
Jonah: The non ... the real version is a bird flew at me but didn't come that close to hitting me.
Michael: There was no immediate danger?
Jonah: It was like you looked up and a bird was flying at you but it wasn't severe and it wasn't dangerous.
Michael: Yeah, and so ... and this might pique the mic a little. So, your reaction was, get ready on the dial that ... so your reaction was you jumped in your chair and went "Please!" That's it, right?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: That's what makes it my favorite story. Please!
Jonah: Please!
Michael: And then for the rest of the day, you were like the please guy, right?
Jonah: Yeah, they were -
Michael: Please!
Jonah: They were so unkind.
Michael: Please!
Jonah: They'd like throw a football towards me and be like "Please!"
Michael: "Please!"
Jonah: Needless to say she dumped me very shortly after that.
Michael: She did?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Well, it shows where she's at.
Jonah: No, she's married now, and to probably a guy who's not scared of birds I imagine.
Michael: Good for her.
Jonah: But, I am terrified of winged animals.
Michael: Birds?
Jonah: Yeah, but like -
Michael: Not just birds?
Jonah: Like pigeons. Like if a pigeon -
Michael: That's a bird.
Jonah: - would like to touch my face -
Michael: What about like a bug that flies?
Jonah: I can handle that.
Michael: You know my dad, Luigi?
Jonah: Of course.
Michael: My dad is not afraid of anything except for he has a deadly fear of June bugs. He doesn't like them.
Jonah: Like the big fat ones?
Michael: Yeah. If those fly by, he like really shrinks.
Jonah: Do you have Luigi running scared of a June bug?
Michael: Yeah. Turns in to jelly, yeah.
Jonah: Has there been ... would you tell the story -
Michael: I don't know, I never got the beats by calling him -
Jonah: Would you tell the story where your dad got mad about cleaning stuff up?
Michael: Oh yeah.
Jonah: This is my favorite story about your dad.
Michael: It was like when we were really little. Me and my sisters, I don't know, it was the thing where like your dad tries to get angry and then it ends up accidentally being funny and it makes him even more angry. So he was like angry that we left stuff around and he accidentally rhymed like a Dr. Seuss rhyme. He was like, "You kids leave your things where they lay. You put them there and there they stay."
Jonah: But he screamed it.
Michael: Yeah, he was screaming it. And, we all like just burst out laughing and my mom laughed, which also took the steam —
Jonah: Set him off.
Michael: Yeah, and then he just had ... he was just -
Jonah: You leave them there and there they stay.
Michael: Also, to form a sentence that way.
Jonah: It's like there isn't anything funnier than anger because it's so rarely lands. Like when does anger like land the way you want it to land?
Michael: Yeah, that's true.
Jonah: There's like a three percent chance anger lands -
Michael: He always looked silly.
Jonah: - in the effect and intention of it.
Michael: If anger doesn't lead to violence then it's just silly.
Jonah: Right.
Michael: I mean if violence gets ... okay, it's like oh, okay, this is a situation.
Jonah: But even -
Michael: You're hitting me.
Jonah: Yeah, that's terrible. I mean anger of just like -
Michael: Silly, red in the face.
Jonah: - expressing non-violent physical -
Michael: I guess you've seen a lot of that on sets because there's as lot of like people lose their temper on sets, right?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: Have you seen it?
Jonah: Yeah. My first movie was I Heart Huckabees. It was David O’Russell was the director and that was the movie he like ... all those videos -
Michael: Right, say no more. Yeah.
Jonah: - came out. He since apologized to me or kind of -
Michael: Chilled out. Yeah. Oh really?
Jonah: Yeah, he was awesome. He's actually a really ... I like seeing him quite a bit now.
Michael: That was a phase or something.
Jonah: But, I was scared of him when I was younger. Because I was 18, all I ever wanted to be was a director and it was my first set I was ever on and I was like "This is what movies are like? Holy shit!" But, I think people ... I think growing up more, I kind of understand the odd part about at least being an actor I would say is like having to express certain emotions no matter what's going on in your life.
Jonah: So, I kind of understand it more like when I had an ... you know, if I had an actor as a director sort of lose it a little bit, I understand more because they're all of a sudden having to give this ... give everything to this thing or get to this place.
Michael: I've done -
Jonah: You have no idea what's going on in their personal life. That's what I mean, you know.
Michael: That's true.
Jonah: So, it's like someone could have had like lost a relative and then they have to do this really funny scene or something.
Michael: Yeah, right. Right.
Jonah: You know, not that it's an excuse to behave poorly at work at all.
Michael: No.
Jonah: I just maybe -
Michael: Well, there's a level that where it crosses over and you're just like you're just an asshole.
Jonah: Yes.
Michael: I kind of get when people are upset about something but it's always just like ... well, it's like dad's angry or something when everything goes quiet on set and somebody's like -
Jonah: Well, Scott Robertson -
Michael: - catching the vibe.
Jonah: Scott Robertson is like -
Michael: Oh Scott, yeah.
Jonah: Scottie is the first AD on the Superbad, Moneyball, and he was the first AD, Executive Producer on Mid90s.
Michael: Oh, that's great.
Jonah: Scott like makes movies. He is like -
Michael: The engine.
Jonah: - good or bad, a first AD can make or break a film.
Michael: Totally. Totally, yeah.
Jonah: And, when Scott would get upset, which is very rare, he's so the best, but he has to be kind of like the parent in a lot of ways, even more than the director.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Jonah: So, if people are just like goofing off to much or something, the very ... it's like seeing your mom or dad lose their shit kind of.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah.
Jonah: Even as a director, it was funny to still feel that way.
Michael: There's certain jobs where that's part of it.
Jonah: You're like whoa, okay.
Michael: Yeah, like part of actually being good at your job is sometimes you have to like show people that you're annoyed.
Jonah: They're kind of bad cop. Like they kind of have to get -
Michael: Yeah, they have to be sometimes.
Jonah: - people away. Because sets can so easily -
Michael: Yeah, you have to police the set sometimes.
Jonah: - turn to hanging out.
Michael: Yeah. It's a lot of people, it's 100 people you have to tell them all to be quiet.
Jonah: I always laugh at this point still when someone's cellphone goes off.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I remember.
Jonah: You would work on a set that like your cellphone ... that the ringer would be on -
Michael: In the take, yeah.
Jonah: Yeah, it just -
Michael: You know like when they do room tone, everybody has to go quiet, I remember you would always do the joke -
Jonah: Such a ham. Such a fucking ham. That's so embarrassing. I literally told that story the other day. Someone was doing room tone and I was like you know when I was like 21 I was so obnoxious that you have to be quiet to get the tone of the room and -
Michael: They just need it.
Jonah: And they literally need it to make the film and post production.
Michael: That's the best part is like that's the best time to try and make someone laugh.
Jonah: Yeah, I would always try to make you laugh.
Michael: Yeah, that's because it's the most thrilling thing when you're not allowed to make a sound.
Jonah: Well, let's ... okay, we're getting close to the end.
Michael: Okay. It's happened to me on stage by the way, this kind of laughing fit, with Kieran during This Is Our Youth.
Jonah: What, you were just ... what do you think it is?
Michael: Me and Kieran had a ... we both gamble a lot, like we gamble together, that's kind of ... we're both degenerate gamblers and the thing we had was we didn't want to like just trade money the whole time so we would gamble for pushups.
Jonah: That's so good. So how many -
Michael: Like pushups on demand.
Jonah: How many would it be?
Michael: It'd be like you owe me 100 pushups in the next ... they're good for the next week and then they'd expire. But, it's on demand. So like we'll go to dinner, the food'll show up and then I'll say I need 20 pushups.
Jonah: And what's the maximum you could ask for in one -
Michael: You could only dole out 20 at a time.
Jonah: Twenty, okay.
Michael: with some time in between or something like that.
Jonah: That's amazing. So you'd be in a restaurant and you'd have to -
Michael: It's like humiliation. Yeah, and then he's doing pushups and people are looking. So, I think I said like if you could do this thing on stage I'll owe you whatever, like a dare, you know. And, the thing was to do a really dumb delivery of a line. To go like okay, "That's it." There's a line in the play where he goes "Okay, that's it. Call Christian. Do this, this." And, I said if you do it like "That's it!", like an old Jimmy Durante, like really lean in to that, that was the dare, and then he did it like 100 percent.
Jonah: Like he would always do it.
Michael: He just did it.
Jonah: That's it and then you would laugh.
Michael: And, as soon as he did it, he held in that pose for a second and we looked in each others eyes and we had to both look away and then the scene went on. He kept ... but then I knew as soon as we looked at each other
Jonah: You would start laughing.
Michael: - it was gonna be bad. And then we did it and then we just broke.
Jonah: You were literally laughing in the play?
Michael: We just broke. Yeah, we were laughing for like a minute. I fell down on the bed laughing. Dying laughing. Like uncontrollable laughing. No, the audience knew that the play had broken and they were laughing too. They were like enjoying it.
Jonah: Because they knew you guys had broken?
Michael: It was like a moment. Yeah, I mean it was like the whole house ... it was fun.
Jonah: Do you get talked to by like someone after?
Michael: No, nobody did. But, I mean we felt the pressure of we have to get this thing back on the track. This play ... like you know, we can't lose the stakes of all that we've built up to this point in the play. This is like near the end. And, the payoff is coming. And, these people paid. You really have this thing in your mind of like professionalism.
Jonah: Right, because people literally spend their hard earned money for expensive theater tickets.
Michael: Yeah, and I mean they ... sometimes I think people like to see when something goes wrong in the theater. It makes it kind of a special thing.
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: But, I did have a sense of responsibility that made it ten times harder.
Jonah: Oh my god.
Michael: And so, it was a crazy feeling.
Jonah: I wish I could have seen that.
Michael: It was pretty special. Yeah, but we got it back. We got through the play.
Jonah: Yeah, man, you and Kieran were so good together.
Michael: I love working with him.
Jonah: He's a great actor too.
Michael: Yeah.
Jonah: And, he's an interesting guy. I don't know him very well. I only know him through you.
Michael: Yeah, well, it's funny, like they just did a big article about him in Vanity Fair, a big profile and it's funny to see your friend's life sort of like narrativized.
Jonah: Right, like they sort of tell a story, their version -
Michael: They kind of ... yeah, they do his whole life in a way.
Jonah: - of his story. Did he feel it was accurate or did you feel it was accurate?
Michael: He didn't read it I think.
Jonah: Yeah, good for him.
Michael: Or hasn't yet.
Jonah: That's such self-discipline.
Michael: Yeah, I think know why, because it must be weird to read about your life, especially he's got this kind of funny life. Hanging out with Michael Jackson.
Jonah: If I were to interview Kieran and knew that -
Michael: Like people don't -
Jonah: - would be like 100 percent of my questions.
Michael: If you're writing for Vanity Fair -
Jonah: Like what are you interested in knowing about.
Michael: Yeah, I guess it's a bit of a monkey on his back, no pun intended.
Jonah: Who's the craziest person like Michael Jackson type figure you've ever met?
Michael: I mean Michael Jackson, that's a high bar of insanity to -
Jonah: I mean him being the holy grail of like odd, eccentric figures, important figures that have eccentricity to them.
Michael: Maybe David Lynch. I got to hang out with him. I mean I don't know him very well because I just spent like a day with him but to me he seems like a person from another planet in the way that you just can't understand how they exist and how they're so great.
Jonah: And would you have conversations with him that confirmed your love or admiration for him?
Michael: Just the fact that I met him made me appreciate how open of a person he is. The way that I met him was by going and doing transcendental meditation. Like signing up for it.
Jonah: At the Lynch Foundation?
Michael: Yeah, or the TM Center. There's a few of them. You go over the course of four days to learn the method. And then on the fourth day, there was this young girl and she's like, "I'm from the David Lynch Foundation. Do you guys want to meet David Lynch and meditate with him sometime?" We were like what? Like we really just walked in there and did this for four days and then she just appeared with an invitation to go meet the master. I'm like what just happened? This is crazy.
Michael: And then, we didn't really believe her until like a month later she was like "How's Thursday at David's house?" And, he had us at his house at noon and he invited us up to his painting studio. I got there before all of my friends and I went up and met him just one on one.
Jonah: Was it awkward?
Michael: He was like, "Hey buddy. Hey, Mike." He knew who I was I think and he was like "Wow, how are you?"
Jonah: Was he wearing the black suit with the white.
Michael: I don't think so. I think he was wearing his painting stuff.
Jonah: Garb.
Michael: But, he was so ... I mean that was like a miracle to me that I could be invited to this man's home and meet him and meditate with him.
Jonah: Yeah, you just like hung out at David Lynch's house?
Michael: Yeah, we hung out for like an hour and then we all left.
Jonah: Amazing. I love that.
Michael: And then I got to work with him for like a day. And yeah, no, I mean he's like someone that I think is a different kind of person.
Jonah: That's a great answer.
Michael: Yeah. Do you have someone like that?
Jonah: Mine would be ... it wasn't a long ... it was just a great story for who the person was. I met Prince.
Michael: Oh wow! That's pretty great.
Jonah: We went to go see Prince.
Michael: Oh yeah, that's right.
Jonah: With the whole cast of High School Musical.
Michael: Yeah, right.
Jonah: On our first stop in the Superbad tour, another weird Superbad tour thing. The cast of High School Musical was on our floor.
Michael: They had a box.
Jonah: We all went to go see Prince. Yeah, they invited us.
Michael: They had like the Disney box.
Jonah: It was amazing.
Michael: That was wild.
Jonah: I met Prince many, many years ago and it was at his house I guess. And, it was a party, like it was a ... oh, I know what it was, it was when I presented the first time at the Academy Awards many, many years ago, Prince had like an after party and I think he would have like an after party, like a famous after party after them for many years. But, I was like 24 or something. And, I went and I met him and what was awesome was I met him and he was wearing a crazy Prince outfit, you know, like a cool Prince outfit. And, we said a few words and he said, "Hello. Have fun. Welcome to my house." I don't remember exactly what he said.
Jonah: And then, he excused himself and literally 20 seconds later I turn around and he's having a conversation with someone else but he's wearing a completely different outfit. And, I'll just never forget that. He had somehow ... like in the Dave Chappelle Show version of like Prince, you know, like he had literally did an outfit change in what felt to me like must have been like at tops 45 seconds.
Michael: That's crazy.
Jonah: And, that's my one image of Prince where he ... something very eccentric happened.
Michael: Wow! Like a little magic trick?
Jonah: Yeah, like just some sort of like what you would want him to do.
Michael: But, I love that what that actually ... the story that that actually tells. It's like magical. It's like you turn around and he's wearing different clothes, but the reality of it is it means this guy runs into his room and frantically changes his clothes.
Jonah: It just ... I don't know how he ... he must have had the clothes on underneath.
Michael: Yeah, he had a tearaway suit.
Jonah: He had like a tearaway Prince suit. And, like does he find that funny that he would run into people he was speaking to two minutes earlier in a completely different outfit?
Michael: Just confuse them.
Jonah: Is that like comical? Is he just so swagged out that like he's just got to have some much drip, like so many different outfits?
Michael: Yeah, that's actually -
Jonah: I love Prince, though, so rest in peace Prince.
Michael: Yeah, he was great.
Jonah: Well, Mikey, I love you.
Michael: All right, buddy. We did it.
Jonah: This was a scheduled and forced way for us to hang out while you're doing a play.
Michael: Yes. I think we should schedule this more often.
Jonah: Everybody go see The Wavery Gallery.
Michael: Waverly.
Jonah: Wave ...
Michael: Wanna take that again? Wanna take -
Jonah: Take that again. Run that back and arrange it.
Michael: The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah: What did I say?
Michael: I think you said the Wavery Garrity.
Jonah: Go see Mike in the Waderlly Warritid. And -
Michael: The Brad Garrity.
Jonah: The Brad ... go see Michael in The Brad Garrity. Okay, go see Michael in -
Michael: As Brad Garrity. I worked with Brad Garrett. All right, let's stop.
Jonah: What did you work with him on?
Michael: I want the last line to be I worked with Brad Garrett.
Jonah: And then just abruptly cut off. What did you work with Brad Garrett on?
Michael: I worked with him just like a year ago on a little movie called Gloria that Julianne Moore is Gloria.
Jonah: Oh, no way.
Michael: It's coming out soon. It's a remake of this Chilean movie called Gloria that I loved.
Jonah: Right, and the same director remade -
Michael: Yes.
Jonah: - the movie, right?
Michael: Yeah, Sebastian Lelio. Yeah.
Jonah: That is so cool. How was Brad Garrett?
Michael: He was great. I mean we like ... we talked about poker the whole time because he lives in Las Vegas and he plays poker.
Jonah: He lives in Las Vegas?
Michael: Yes, he does. He like owns a comedy club out there or something.
Jonah: Brad Garrett owns a comedy club in Las Vegas and lives out there? We need to go to Las Vegas and go to the Brad Garrett -
Michael: I think that's right. Yeah, let's go.
Jonah: Okay, great.
Michael: Great.
Jonah: Mikey, I love you.
Michael: Yeah, that's a plan.
Jonah: You're the best.
Michael: Love you buddy.
Jonah: I love you more than you know.
Michael: You're the best. This is great.
Jonah: Go see Michael Cera in The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Thank you.
Jonah: Co-starring with Elaine May.
Michael: Well, when does this come out, this podcast?
Jonah: January. Will you still be in the play?
Michael: Yes, we're basically done by the time it will -
Jonah: Go see the final show.
Michael: Go read about The Waverly Gallery.
Jonah: Go read about the reviews of The Waverly Gallery.
Michael: Check 'em out.
Jonah: Starring Brad Garrett and Mikey Cera and -
Michael: Elaine May, together again.
Jonah: - Elaine May and Joan Allen, and Lukey Hedges.
Michael: And David Cromer.
Jonah: And David Cromer and go rent iTunes style Mid90s.
Michael: Or buy it.
Jonah: Or buy it.
Michael: Yeah, I mean talk about re-watch value.
Jonah: Talking about the re-watchability of a film.
Michael: Get the special features too.
Jonah: I've seen it like 3,000 times.
Michael: Is there a making of?
Jonah: There is lots of good behind the scenes.
Michael: That's what I want to see.
Jonah: And, there's deleted scenes.
Michael: Do you have a cut of making of out of it?
Jonah: Yeah.
Michael: I want to see that.
Jonah: We had really good ... because all the kids were shooting the skateboarding.
Michael: Yeah, right, oh, so you have all of that.
Jonah: Yeah, and a lot of it's on that footage.
Michael: Great. Great.
Jonah: So, it's really fun.
Michael: Oh, that sounds great. I would buy that.
Jonah: And, see Michael and I being friends, hanging out -
Michael: In life.
Jonah: - in life.
Michael: Yeah, unless anything goes wrong.
